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10-27-2019, 07:39 AM

Nothing in this thread will change the outcome of this year's event.

Hopefully, the organizer will take this take this as a lessons to improve next year's event. Make referees more available, especially during crucial matches, so that players don't take it upon themselves make the same error.


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10-27-2019, 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
My hand is raised, but I've never seen a referee declare a stalemate in any game other than eight ball. In general, though, it is called in any game when, due to the position, the prospect of a game's completion is deemed near impossible.
I’ve seen a few stalemates called at snooker....when I was watching, it was always a
color blocking a pocket with reds surrounding it.

I’m having trouble picturing a stalemate at 14.1.


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10-27-2019, 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Jaguar View Post
When you need one last point and there is just the break ball remaining on the table, can you go ahead and shoot it, or must you first put the next rack up on the table? There were differing comments on that too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
Under the rules, the balls must be racked. It's possible for that last ball to be missed and either it or the CB pass into or through the rack area. But with an easy final point, probably lots of players (with the opponent's consent) would just go ahead and shoot it.
I’m assuming Alex’s opponent gave him permission to shoot the 15th ball.
...but I don’t agree with it...
..I also saw the last ball conceded in some matches...I don’t like that either.


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10-27-2019, 03:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Jaguar View Post
When you need one last point and there is just the break ball remaining on the table, can you go ahead and shoot it, or must you first put the next rack up on the table? There were differing comments on that too.
A guy I know of lost an Eurotour match this way. You have to rack the balls up before you shoot, or it's a foul!
  
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10-27-2019, 09:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
A guy I know of lost an Eurotour match this way. You have to rack the balls up before you shoot, or it's a foul!
Technically it is unsportsmanlike conduct. There is no explicit foul associated with shooting the break ball early.


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10-28-2019, 01:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Technically it is unsportsmanlike conduct. There is no explicit foul associated with shooting the break ball early.
Common sense might dictate, if you allow your opponent to shoot before the balls are racked, you have essentially conceded the match. Same with ‘conceding’ the last shot.

Question now: Is a concession ever considered ‘unsportsmanlike conduct’? Though I feel any player obviously has the right to quit anytime, with a televised or paid-attendance ‘championship’ event (excepting illness or injury), I could see where that designation might well apply, though what kind of ‘foul’ penalty would really be relevant if a competitor disappointed the spectators by conceding and walking out on the final?
  
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10-28-2019, 03:04 PM

It is hard to fathom a tournament finals at this level, even without a referee for the match, that neither the tournament director or either of the players were aware of the correct ruling. As it turned out, this incorrect ruling did have a direct impact on the outcome of this match. Alex has no one to blame but himself, as he should have known the rule. It sounds like Alex did question the incorrect ruling by the TD at the time, but didn't stand his ground and request that the TD check the 14.1 rulebook to confirm.

Makes you wonder how many other 14.1 rules these pro players or TD's don’t know? As supremely talented as these players are, it sure isn’t a very good look for them or for the tournament director. Reminds me of a few years back when Donovan McNabb, quarterback for the Eagles, ran out the clock in a sudden death overtime game, unaware that the game ends in a tie if neither team scores in that first overtime.

Last edited by ChrisinNC; 10-29-2019 at 06:01 AM. Reason: edit
  
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10-29-2019, 07:45 AM

In my opinion if the referee announces the remaining balls, the non-shooter must protest if he/she thinks the announcement regarding the score is wrong. It is a standard that if you let the following shot take place, you accept the situation and cannot protest afterwards. If the ref calls "shooting for 3" then that is official and stands despite the score if no one objects. In that case Irving was 100% correct and the ref/scorekeeper were wrong.

There was a similar case in a 14.1 European Championships final over 10 years ago. Thorsten ran only a total of 121 or 122 balls in the final because the table referee made a similar wrong announcement about the remaining balls without anyone objecting.

Shooting the final ball without reracking is dumb, especially from the non-shooting player part. In the case that the shooter misses the final ball with the non-shooting player letting it happen without a rerack I'd say the non-shooter has already forfeited the match and the ruling goes to the shooter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
But a little wrinkle about shooting that last ball without the balls being racked.... According to one report, Alex did not need one ball at that point, he needed two due to an earlier scoring error. Which brings up the question of how should scoring errors be addressed? It is probably no good for the opponent to jump up at that point and say, "Alex, my buddy just told me that we made a mistake on the score and you still need a ball. Let's look at the video. He says it was rack before last." The rules and regulations do not address how to handle that. At nine ball, I think you correct the score if the actual score can be determined.

A classic case of the wrong score was in a big tournament match with Irving Crane running out and nearly finished with the game. The ref said, as refs did at the time, "Mr. Crane playing for three." Irv plans his run, makes three balls, and happens to freeze the cue ball on the end rail (or some such) after the game ball. At that point the scorekeeper (of which big tournaments had one or two at each table) pipes up and says, "Oops, I added wrong and Mr. Crane still needs a ball." Crane ended up suing the tournament management and I think he won.

Rule sets don't talk about such errors but maybe they should.


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10-29-2019, 08:27 AM

To add to my previous post, as a fellow senior, my guess is that Mr Burrows, with his vast experience as a 14.1 tournament director, is aware of this opening break rule, and likely just suffered from a temporary senior moment, which all of us seniors can certainly relate to. My hunch is that Chinahov, being a European player with considerable straight pool tournament experience, was likely aware that this was an incorrect ruling, but gladly took advantage of the opportunity - and he did!
  
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10-29-2019, 08:48 AM

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Originally Posted by 2/5MR2 View Post
Watching the American 14.1 straight pool championship. Alex Pagulayan makes a legal break (2 balls and the cue ball to the rail) and then scratches. Of course this is a legal break (-1 point, a regular foul, Not a -2 breaking foul) and the opponent can -NOT- ask for a rerack.

Now both commentators Mika Immonen and Danny Barouty aren't sure about the rules. There is no referee to interject. Ruslan asks for a rerack and Alex Pagulayan complies !!!

Alex Pagulayan makes a much lesser break, Ruslan gets a shot, and runs 99, pretty much sealing the fate of the match.

It took Steve Lipsky to text Danny Barouty for the whole operation to realize that they made a real bad mistake.

So my question is: does anybody knows the rules of 14.1 other than Steve Lipsky?
I'm not sure about there not being a referee. There was a referee earlier when there was a question about whether a break ball was outside the rack.
  
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10-29-2019, 02:33 PM

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Originally Posted by alstl View Post
I'm not sure about there not being a referee. There was a referee earlier when there was a question about whether a break ball was outside the rack.
There was no referee officiating any of the matches. Andy Lincoln was the tournament director and throughout the event was called to tables to watch hits or determine break ball eligibility. He was not however, hovering near tables at any time, even during the semis and finals. He was watching from a distance, most of the time, which is more than I can say for John Leyman.
I'm of the opinion there should be a referee for the semis and finals whether it's Andy or someone he or Peter designates. There were qualified people there.
Another thing that could and should be done is to go over the rules in the players meeting. It's really not that complicated and wouldn't take long.
I'm going to bring this stuff up next year and hopefully some changes will be made.
  
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10-30-2019, 12:11 AM

What also confuses me sometimes that if you have a unclear situation regarding the rules, why don't the players/ref just look them up from their mobiles? It takes maybe 1-2min to get 100% accurate information.


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10-30-2019, 01:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
To add to my previous post, as a fellow senior, my guess is that Mr Burrows, with his vast experience as a 14.1 tournament director, is aware of this opening break rule, and likely just suffered from a temporary senior moment, which all of us seniors can certainly relate to. My hunch is that Chinahov, being a European player with considerable straight pool tournament experience, was likely aware that this was an incorrect ruling, but gladly took advantage of the opportunity - and he did!
Did I miss something? Did someone say that Peter made a ruling on that opening break?

I thought I heard Alex say "OK, if that's the rule". I was under the impression that Chinakhov told him he had to re-break.
  
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That opening break, etc.
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That opening break, etc. - 10-30-2019, 04:03 AM

First of all, that was a great event with what many have been the highest general level of any 14.1 tournament...ever. Massive thanks to Peter, Andy et al.

My old song: There should be an active referee attending all finals and semi-finals, at least, of 14.1 tournaments. We all remember the Strickland-Shaw debacle at Steinway some years back.

That of course is an overhead issue, but a necessary one.


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10-30-2019, 04:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjantti View Post
What also confuses me sometimes that if you have a unclear situation regarding the rules, why don't the players/ref just look them up from their mobiles? It takes maybe 1-2min to get 100% accurate information.
I agree with your analysis of the score situation above. The correction needs to be made before a shot is taken.

The sad reality is that most people who run tournaments have no idea where to find the World Standardized Rules online and many (or most?) of them have no idea that there are WSRs. Adding to the sadness is the ignorance of even the top players. I am trying to recall even one player who is familiar with the current rules and I can't.

If I were king all the players would be required to take a test prior to the tournament and those who failed would take a two-hour class with a charge of $300. Perhaps they would read the rules then and for what appears to be all of them it would be the first time.


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