Does anybody know the freaking rules?

2/5MR2

amateur
Watching the American 14.1 straight pool championship. Alex Pagulayan makes a legal break (2 balls and the cue ball to the rail) and then scratches. Of course this is a legal break (-1 point, a regular foul, Not a -2 breaking foul) and the opponent can -NOT- ask for a rerack.

Now both commentators Mika Immonen and Danny Barouty aren't sure about the rules. There is no referee to interject. Ruslan asks for a rerack and Alex Pagulayan complies !!!

Alex Pagulayan makes a much lesser break, Ruslan gets a shot, and runs 99, pretty much sealing the fate of the match.

It took Steve Lipsky to text Danny Barouty for the whole operation to realize that they made a real bad mistake.

So my question is: does anybody knows the rules of 14.1 other than Steve Lipsky?
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
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Where’s Bob Jewitt when you need him?

He was sitting in the bleachers but it wouldn't be appropriate for him to interject unless asked. I was kinda disappointed when it happened because I was hoping for Alex to win and thought he needed to get out in front to have a chance considering the way Chinahov was playing. Couldn't believe it when they reracked the balls.
Really should have a referee for this match. There a few qualified people who probably been happy to do it. Jewett being the most logical choice.
All that being said, it probably wouldn't have mattered. I've never seen anyone play more perfect 14.1 throughout a whole tournament as Ruslan did this week.
,
 

Joe_Jaguar

AzB Silver Member
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When you need one last point and there is just the break ball remaining on the table, can you go ahead and shoot it, or must you first put the next rack up on the table? There were differing comments on that too.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
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When you need one last point and there is just the break ball remaining on the table, can you go ahead and shoot it, or must you first put the next rack up on the table? There were differing comments on that too.

Under the rules, the balls must be racked. It's possible for that last ball to be missed and either it or the CB pass into or through the rack area. But with an easy final point, probably lots of players (with the opponent's consent) would just go ahead and shoot it.
 

AtLarge

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... So my question is: does anybody knows the rules of 14.1 other than Steve Lipsky?

It's kind of crazy how many pros do not know all the rules.

The same thing happened in a Hohmann/Kiamco match a few years ago. I remember wondering how it was possible that the world's best straight pool player didn't know the opening break rules.
 

shasta777

AzB Silver Member
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These are the rules I played by.... :)

OPENING BREAK

Starting player must either (1) designate a ball and a pocket into which that ball will be pocketed and accomplish the shot, or (2) cause the cue ball to contact a ball and then a cushion, plus cause two object balls to contact a cushion. Failure to meet at least one of the above requirements is a breaking violation. Offenderís score is assessed a 2-point penalty for each breaking violation. In addition, the opponent has the choice of (1) accepting the table in position, or (2) having the balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to repeat the opening break. That choice continues until the opening break is not a breaking violation, or until the opponent accepts the table in position. The three successive fouls rule does not apply to breaking violations. If the starting player scratches on a legal opening break, he is charged with a foul and assessed a one point penalty, which applies toward the "Successive Fouls Penalties". The incoming player is awarded cue ball in hand behind the head string, with object balls in position.
 

AtLarge

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These are the rules I played by.... :)

OPENING BREAK

Starting player must either (1) designate a ball and a pocket into which that ball will be pocketed and accomplish the shot, or (2) cause the cue ball to contact a ball and then a cushion, plus cause two object balls to contact a cushion. Failure to meet at least one of the above requirements is a breaking violation. Offenderís score is assessed a 2-point penalty for each breaking violation. In addition, the opponent has the choice of (1) accepting the table in position, or (2) having the balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to repeat the opening break. That choice continues until the opening break is not a breaking violation, or until the opponent accepts the table in position. The three successive fouls rule does not apply to breaking violations. If the starting player scratches on a legal opening break, he is charged with a foul and assessed a one point penalty, which applies toward the "Successive Fouls Penalties". The incoming player is awarded cue ball in hand behind the head string, with object balls in position.

That language is different from what's in the WPA (world-standardized) rules, but the substance is the same. It does, however, omit that if both a "breaking violation" and a scratch occur, it is treated as a breaking violation.

What set of rules is (or was) that language from?
 

Bob Jewett

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When you need one last point and there is just the break ball remaining on the table, can you go ahead and shoot it, or must you first put the next rack up on the table? There were differing comments on that too.
It is unsportsmanlike conduct to shoot the break shot before the balls are racked. Imagine being blocked by the rack for the shot or missing the ball and a ball going through the rack area. And no, it is not reasonable to make up special rules for when the shot is an easy straight-in and the player shoots too softly to get to the rack, and .... If the other player wants to concede, that's fine. Unless, of course, the shooter is on a potentially money-winning high run, such as 201-and-out.
 

Bob Jewett

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...What set of rules is (or was) that language from?
It appears to be from an obsolete version of the WSR. The current World Standardized Rules are available on-line on the WPA website. https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/

It is a mistake to refer to old rule sets.

Here is the applicable rule copied directly from the website above:

4.3 Opening Break Shot

The following rules apply to the opening break shot:
(a) The cue ball begins in hand behind the head string.
(b) If no called ball is pocketed, the cue ball and two object balls must each be driven to a rail
after the cue ball contacts the rack or the shot is a breaking foul. (See 8.4 Driven to a Rail.)
This is penalized by subtracting two points from the breaker’s score. (See 4.10 Breaking
Foul.) The non-breaking player may accept the balls in position or may require the breaker to
play another opening break shot, until he satisfies the requirements for an opening break or
the non-shooting player accepts the table in position. (See 4.11 Serious Fouls)
 
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Joe_Jaguar

AzB Silver Member
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It is unsportsmanlike conduct to shoot the break shot before the balls are racked. Imagine being blocked by the rack for the shot or missing the ball and a ball going through the rack area. And no, it is not reasonable to make up special rules for when the shot is an easy straight-in and the player shoots too softly to get to the rack, and .... If the other player wants to concede, that's fine. Unless, of course, the shooter is on a potentially money-winning high run, such as 201-and-out.

Right, and this happened in one of the streamed matches on Friday, although the rack would not have blocked the final shot.

There was a match on the stream at one of the NY area events I believe a year or two ago when this came up (can't remember if it was at Dragon's, this event, or the CSI US Open event in CT), where they didn't put up the final rack and instead just shot the final ball in, and it appeared that if the rack had in fact been on the table that the player would not have been able to see the "break ball" for the final point. No one other than one commentator appeared to know or care about the rule. I want to say it was Strickland shooting but am not sure.
 

Bob Jewett

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But a little wrinkle about shooting that last ball without the balls being racked.... According to one report, Alex did not need one ball at that point, he needed two due to an earlier scoring error. Which brings up the question of how should scoring errors be addressed? It is probably no good for the opponent to jump up at that point and say, "Alex, my buddy just told me that we made a mistake on the score and you still need a ball. Let's look at the video. He says it was rack before last." The rules and regulations do not address how to handle that. At nine ball, I think you correct the score if the actual score can be determined.

A classic case of the wrong score was in a big tournament match with Irving Crane running out and nearly finished with the game. The ref said, as refs did at the time, "Mr. Crane playing for three." Irv plans his run, makes three balls, and happens to freeze the cue ball on the end rail (or some such) after the game ball. At that point the scorekeeper (of which big tournaments had one or two at each table) pipes up and says, "Oops, I added wrong and Mr. Crane still needs a ball." Crane ended up suing the tournament management and I think he won.

Rule sets don't talk about such errors but maybe they should.
 

Bob Jewett

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... So my question is: does anybody knows the rules of 14.1 other than Steve Lipsky?
This does not answer your question, but so far as I know, there was only one person present at any time this week at Q-Master who has read through the WSR and regulations. And I wonder if Steve is familiar with the stalemate rule at 14.1. Everyone who was aware that 14.1 has a stalemate rule, please raise your hand.

The tournament did not exactly follow the WSR in that the use of jump cues was forbidden. While this additional rule is standard in the US for 14.1 (and one pocket), it is not part of the WSR and at least one player expected to be able to use his jump cue.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
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This does not answer your question, but so far as I know, there was only one person present at any time this week at Q-Master who has read through the WSR and regulations. And I wonder if Steve is familiar with the stalemate rule at 14.1. Everyone who was aware that 14.1 has a stalemate rule, please raise your hand.

The tournament did not exactly follow the WSR in that the use of jump cues was forbidden. While this additional rule is standard in the US for 14.1 (and one pocket), it is not part of the WSR and at least one player expected to be able to use his jump cue.

My hand is raised, but I've never seen a referee declare a stalemate in any game other than eight ball. In general, though, it is called in any game when, due to the position, the prospect of a game's completion is deemed near impossible.
 

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
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Nothing in this thread will change the outcome of this year's event.

Hopefully, the organizer will take this take this as a lessons to improve next year's event. Make referees more available, especially during crucial matches, so that players don't take it upon themselves make the same error.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
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My hand is raised, but I've never seen a referee declare a stalemate in any game other than eight ball. In general, though, it is called in any game when, due to the position, the prospect of a game's completion is deemed near impossible.

I’ve seen a few stalemates called at snooker....when I was watching, it was always a
color blocking a pocket with reds surrounding it.

I’m having trouble picturing a stalemate at 14.1.
 

pt109

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When you need one last point and there is just the break ball remaining on the table, can you go ahead and shoot it, or must you first put the next rack up on the table? There were differing comments on that too.

Under the rules, the balls must be racked. It's possible for that last ball to be missed and either it or the CB pass into or through the rack area. But with an easy final point, probably lots of players (with the opponent's consent) would just go ahead and shoot it.

I’m assuming Alex’s opponent gave him permission to shoot the 15th ball.
...but I don’t agree with it...
..I also saw the last ball conceded in some matches...I don’t like that either.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
When you need one last point and there is just the break ball remaining on the table, can you go ahead and shoot it, or must you first put the next rack up on the table? There were differing comments on that too.

A guy I know of lost an Eurotour match this way. You have to rack the balls up before you shoot, or it's a foul!
 
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