Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

dr_dave · Jul 9, 2013

hossy said:
Hi Dave,

Do you have a TDF document in mm notation.

In order to be used to more and more people, you should prepare it.

Thanks,

Great idea! I will add metric-unit equivalents for all values. I personally find it embarrassing that the US is one of the few countries in the entire world that refuses to modernize out of the "dark ages" of "English Units." Jimmy Carter tried to change this in the 1970's, but it didn't stick. Maybe our next president can try again. I thought Obama might give it a go, but its getting a bit late for that now.

Unfortunately, most pool tables have been built to English-Unit specs, so all of the metric equivalents will be weird values, but I'll do it anyway.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave · Jul 9, 2013

I searched through the thread to get the remaining table descriptors. Please let me know if you have any additional info or changes.

Here's the latest, after all of the recent updates:

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted to be be a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (league table)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Brunswick Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93 (modified Valley "bar box")
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (unknown)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

Sloppy Pockets · Jul 9, 2013

dzcues said:
The pics I worked with are shown. I could not figure out how to remove the grid lines from the photo nor how to paste a clear picture into AC. I also couldn't scale both the pic & the drawing together. Any advice appreciated.

Looks like you are only in 256 color mode, that's why you are getting such severe posterization.

You need to insert it as a raster (bitmap) image from the "Insert" menu. AutoCAD uses scalable vector graphics, which are mathematically derived. Bitmap images are composed of individual pixels and are not directly scalable, so they must be upsized or downsized to contain more or less pixels.

Below is a screen capture of your photo after I inserted it into AutoCAD LT. Looks pretty sharp to me considering I just grabbed it off your post and dragged it onto my desktop before inserting it into AC.

TATE · Jul 9, 2013

dr_dave said:
I searched through the thread to get the remaining table descriptors. Please let me know if you have any additional info or changes.

Here's the latest, after all of the recent updates:

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted to be be a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (league table)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Brunswick Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93 (modified Valley "bar box")
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (unknown)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

Dave,

Mine is actually an Ernesto modified Brunswick Gibson.

Chris

dr_dave · Jul 9, 2013

TATE said:
Dave,

Mine is actually an Ernesto modified Brunswick Gibson.

Chris

Thank you for the correction.

Here's the latest updated list:

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (league table)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Brunswick Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93 (modified Valley "bar box")
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (unknown)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

Fatboy · Jul 9, 2013

im going to pool sharks in vegas in the next few days and see how it compairs to my box,

dr_dave · Jul 9, 2013

Fatboy said:
im going to pool sharks in vegas in the next few days and see how it compairs to my box,

Thanks! I look forward to seeing the measurements and TDF. Please provide the table description also (brand and model).

Catch you later,
Dave

dzcues · Jul 9, 2013

dr_dave said:
Again, I trust careful hand measurements more than the photograph approach, which has several potential issues, but I've updated your data. Here's what I got:

dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)

Please re-check your numbers to be sure.

Thanks,
Dave

you are correct...except these numbers were for the typical Diamond/league cut

dr_dave · Jul 9, 2013

dzcues said:
you are correct...except these numbers were for the typical Diamond/league cut

I think I have it figured out now:

dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.00 -- 0.97 (typical League-Cut Diamond)

If this is not correct, please list both tables in the format shown above, with the latest and correct values.

Thanks,
Dave

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (league table)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.00 -- 0.97 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Brunswick Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93 (modified Valley "bar box")
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (unknown)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

dzcues · Jul 9, 2013

dr_dave said:
I think I have it figured out now:

dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.00 -- 0.97 (typical League-Cut Diamond)

If this is not correct, please list both tables in the format shown above, with the latest and correct values.

Thanks,
Dave

Gandy is correct but I believe the diamond should read:

dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)

dzcues · Jul 9, 2013

Sloppy Pockets said:
Looks like you are only in 256 color mode, that's why you are getting such severe posterization.

You need to insert it as a raster (bitmap) image from the "Insert" menu. AutoCAD uses scalable vector graphics, which are mathematically derived. Bitmap images are composed of individual pixels and are not directly scalable, so they must be upsized or downsized to contain more or less pixels.

Below is a screen capture of your photo after I inserted it into AutoCAD LT. Looks pretty sharp to me considering I just grabbed it off your post and dragged it onto my desktop before inserting it into AC.

Thanks. I'll see if I can change the color mode.

dr_dave · Jul 9, 2013

dzcues said:
Gandy is correct but I believe the diamond should read:

dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)

Sorry about all of the confusion, and thank you for correcting me. I think I have things straight now.

Here's the latest:

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (league table)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Brunswick Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93 (modified Valley "bar box")
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (unknown)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

MVPCues · Jul 9, 2013

Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900.

9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":0.98 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.96

dr_dave · Jul 9, 2013

Kelly_Guy said:
Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900.

9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":0.98 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.96

Thank you for posting such a cool table. Here's what I get:

Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)

Please double check to be sure.

Thanks again,
Dave

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (league table)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Brunswick Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93 (modified Valley "bar box")
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (unknown)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

JC · Jul 9, 2013

Kelly_Guy said:
Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900.

9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":0.98 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.96

Seems like a deep shelf for an antique. Have they been extended?

JC

dr_dave · Jul 9, 2013

FYI, I've made some improvements to the TDF document and the thread first post per all of the suggestions people have offered the last couple of weeks. The additions and improvements include:

- Pocket facing angle is now listed as an alternative to the mouth-throat difference, so if you want to measure facing angle directly (if you have an angle measuring device), you can look up the pocket angle factor (PAF) that way.

- Metric equivalents are now provided for all dimensions and measurements.

- It is now more clear how to measure the mouth and throat dimensions accurately, even when the cushion thickness is not 2".

I didn't change any of the numbers in any of the tables, so none of the results should be different.

Please discard any electronic or printed copy of the TDF document you might have and refer to the new version (dated 7/9/2013) for any future measurements and calculations.

Thank you to everybody in helping to make the TDF system even better,
Dave

dr_dave said:
Based on ideas from previous threads on this topic (tight pockets thread and pocket answers thread), and based discussion in the Billiard University (BU) thread concerning how to account for table difficulty in scoring and rating drills like the BU Exams, I decided to create a system for determining how difficult a table plays (based on table and pocket geometry only). It is described in detail in the Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) document, which is convenient if you want a printed copy.

Here's how it works:

The Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) is a percentage measure of how difficult or easy a particular table plays. It is based on table size and the three corner-pocket measurements illustrated below. If the cushion is not 2” (5.1cm) thick, measure the throat size 2” (5.1 cm) back from the cushion noses. You can lay down Post-It Notes or masking tape to better define the lines and intersection points to help with the mouth and throat measurements. The pocket shelf depth should be measured from the pocket mouth line to the slate top lip edge (where the pocket opening first starts).

Four factors are used to account for table size, pocket size, pocket wall angle, and pocket shelf depth. Each factor is a number less than, equal to, or greater than 1, where 1 indicates average or standard. By multiplying the four factors, you get the TDF which is a good measure of table “toughness.” If TDF=1, the table has an average level of difficulty; if TDF>1, the table plays more difficult than average; and if TDF<1, the table plays easier than average.

The four factors are defined as follows:

The total Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) is then calculated by multiplying the four factors:

TDF = TSF x PSF x PAF x PLF

The TDF can be used to adjust numbers from any scoring or rating system like the Billiard University Exams, “playing the ghost” drills, the Hopkins Q Skills drill, or the Fargo rating drill. An effective score, taking table difficulty into consideration, can be calculated with:

(effective score) = (raw score) x TDF

NOTE – The TDF and effective-score numbers should not be interpreted too literally since there are so many other factors that contribute to how difficult a table actually plays (cloth type and condition, ball conditions, pocket facing and shim properties, rail and cushion conditions, table levelness, humidity, etc.). Here’s a rough scale one can use to put the TDF factor in better perspective:

Here's an example of how the TDF system is used. Let’s say two players (“A” and “B”) got an identical Billiard University (BU) score of 130. Player “A” took the exams on a fairly easy table with the following measurements:

Table “A”
table size = 8’, mouth = 5”, throat = 4 1/2”, (mouth-throat) = 1/2”, shelf = 1 3/8”
TDF = TSF x PSF x PAF x PLF = 0.90 x 0.95 x 0.98 x 0.98 = 0.82

Therefore, table “A” is about 18% easier than average (in the “very easy” range), and the effective BU score on this table would be about 130 x 0.82 = 107 (much lower than 130).

Player “B” took the exams on a fairly tough table with the following measurements:

Table “B”
table size = 9’, mouth = 3 7/8”, throat = 3 1/4”, (mouth-throat) = 5/8”, shelf = 1 7/8”
TDF = TSF x PSF x PAF x PLF = 1.00 x 1.20 x 1.00 x 1.03 = 1.24

Therefore, table “B” is about 24% more difficult than average (in the “very tough” range), and the effective BU score on this table would be about 130 x 1.24 = 161 (much higher than 130). This helps put the BU scores in better perspective based on table difficulty. Again, these numbers should not be taken too literally. They just help roughly compare scores on different tables.

I will be curious to see what you guys think, and I look forward to your suggestions and feedback.

Thank you,
Dave

_______________________________________

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (league table)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Brunswick Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93 (modified Valley "bar box")
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (unknown)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

mamics · Jul 9, 2013

dr_dave said:
Here's what I get:

mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)

Please check me when you get a chance.

I agree - 1.00 x 0.98 x 1.04 x 0.95 = 0.97 TDF
Cheers.

MVPCues · Jul 9, 2013

Yes, the sizes are all correct. I assigned the 4 1/2" to the wrong factor when I said it was 0.98.

dr_dave said:
Thank you for posting such a cool table. Here's what I get:

Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)

Please double check to be sure.

Thanks again,
Dave

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (league table)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Brunswick Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93 (modified Valley "bar box")
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (unknown)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

Dopc · Jul 9, 2013

Dr.Dave.
I'm just above your table as (unknown), you can go ahead and replace it with Connelly. It's the kayenta model. The reason for the pockets being slightly smaller than yours is I used 1/4" 60 durometer neoprene facings (pics in my signature for the curious). I've loved following this thread and your work, keep it up...... :thumbup:

Dopc.

P.S. 1/4" facings are a bit to thick I have realized ( I was even told this before installing, to stubborn to listen:banghead: ). I may in the future replace the rail rubber (cheap only $68 and I already have adhesive from the first job) and extend the sub-rails the correct way and use a thin neoprene facing. The thick facings dud the ball just a little more than I had hoped (those *SUPER INCREDIBLE* slow rollers can hit and stop on the facing), but still not a table killer by any stretch.

Neil · Jul 9, 2013

Dave, I'm not understanding something correctly I guess. I have 4 1/8" at the points. 2" back (rails are 1 13/16" thick) they are 3 1/2". Measured the angle a number of times, and I get 145 degrees. Those numbers don't jive together according to your chart.???

Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

Instructional Author

Instructional Author

AzB Silver Member

Attachments

AzB Gold Mensch

Instructional Author

AzB Silver Member

Instructional Author

newbie

Instructional Author

newbie

newbie

Instructional Author

AzB Silver Member

Instructional Author

Coos Cues

Instructional Author

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

www.PoolActionTV.com

AzB Silver Member