B-I-H fumbled off table into a pocket-- ref call?

Sofla

Sofla

AzB Silver Member
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This happened to me in a casual game, and I realized I had no idea what the rules would say should be done.

My opponent was placing the cue ball to take his b-i-h shot, and manipulating it with his cue shaft. He pushed it toward the side pocket, and it went in, not touching any other ball on the table. I believe it was not with the tip of his stick, but more the ferule or lower on the shaft where contact with the cue ball occurred. Would that make a difference, though?

I just allowed him to regain b-i-h and take the shot. Should it have been a turnover of turn, and my b-i-h instead? What if he'd taken a harder swipe at it, and it had jumped off the table instead of into the pocket?

I think we may have been playing Texas Express rules 9-ball, or if not, BCA-style (close but not wholly BCA) league rules 8-ball.
 
Igetthecash

Igetthecash

AzB Silver Member
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Sofla said:
This happened to me in a casual game, and I realized I had no idea what the rules would say should be done.

My opponent was placing the cue ball to take his b-i-h shot, and manipulating it with his cue shaft. He pushed it toward the side pocket, and it went in, not touching any other ball on the table. I believe it was not with the tip of his stick, but more the ferule or lower on the shaft where contact with the cue ball occurred. Would that make a difference, though?

I just allowed him to regain b-i-h and take the shot. Should it have been a turnover of turn, and my b-i-h instead? What if he'd taken a harder swipe at it, and it had jumped off the table instead of into the pocket?

I think we may have been playing Texas Express rules 9-ball, or if not, BCA-style (close but not wholly BCA) league rules 8-ball.
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This is not a foul and it would still be his ball in hand, But if the qball made contact with the tip or another object ball , then that would be a foul and you would then get ball in hand.
 
A

AtLarge

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Igetthecash said:
This is not a foul and it would still be his ball in hand, But if the qball made contact with the tip or another object ball , then that would be a foul and you would then get ball in hand.
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Under WPA (world-standardized) rules, contact between the cue ball and the cue tip while the cue ball is in hand is not a foul unless the cue has made "a forward stroke motion."

"1.5 Cue Ball in Hand
When the cue ball is in hand, the shooter may place the cue ball anywhere on the playing surface (see 8.1 Parts of the Table) and may continue to move the cue ball until he executes a shot. (See definition 8.2 Shot.) Players may use any part of the cue stick to move the cue ball, including the tip, but not with a forward stroke motion. ..."
 
Igetthecash

Igetthecash

AzB Silver Member
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AtLarge said:
Under WPA (world-standardized) rules, contact between the cue ball and the cue tip while the cue ball is in hand is not a foul unless the cue has made "a forward stroke motion."

"1.5 Cue Ball in Hand
When the cue ball is in hand, the shooter may place the cue ball anywhere on the playing surface (see 8.1 Parts of the Table) and may continue to move the cue ball until he executes a shot. (See definition 8.2 Shot.) Players may use any part of the cue stick to move the cue ball, including the tip, but not with a forward stroke motion. ..."
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thank you as i did not know that rule was stated that way but good to know. Thanks
 
TX Poolnut

TX Poolnut

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This reminded me of the IPT event I attended. Several pros were fouled by a ref because they were adjusting the placement of the cue ball with their shaft/ferrule, even though they weren't down on their shot. Alison Fisher, Francisco Bustamante, and several others got called on it.

I believe Deno Andrews brought the rule over from his 3-cushion rules experience. Personally, I like the rule.

I don't know what the rule would be in a refereed match but I'd probably let it slide.
 
poolguppy

poolguppy

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Some one had this exact same scenario come up about 6 months ago,I think most agreed it's not a foul on their part but I'm amazed to see that some people don't like it when an opponent adjusts the ball with the cue, maybe it's the couple seconds of time it takes, maybe because they are bitter about their foul and looking for something to complain about, its natural in pool lol but c'mon, if their own on their shot, would u rather them pull the cue up and micro adjust the ball with their finger, then get down on the shot and decide if they like it more or less and maybe do it again? It's completely illogical to get bugged by some one adjusting with their cue, you fouled, your unhappy, deal
 
Sofla

Sofla

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
AtLarge said:
Under WPA (world-standardized) rules, contact between the cue ball and the cue tip while the cue ball is in hand is not a foul unless the cue has made "a forward stroke motion."

"1.5 Cue Ball in Hand
When the cue ball is in hand, the shooter may place the cue ball anywhere on the playing surface (see 8.1 Parts of the Table) and may continue to move the cue ball until he executes a shot. (See definition 8.2 Shot.) Players may use any part of the cue stick to move the cue ball, including the tip, but not with a forward stroke motion. ..."
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I knew about the tip issue, and how it cannot be part of a forward stroke motion.

But barring that, the b-i-h player can, in effect, 'scratch' the cue ball, or 'table foul' the cue ball (by swiping it off the table), and so long as the tip in a forward motion wasn't the cause, no harm no foul, same b-i-h to him?

I admit that was my own decision at the time, but I still find it surprising.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

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Sofla said:
I knew about the tip issue, and how it cannot be part of a forward stroke motion.

But barring that, the b-i-h player can, in effect, 'scratch' the cue ball, or 'table foul' the cue ball (by swiping it off the table), and so long as the tip in a forward motion wasn't the cause, no harm no foul, same b-i-h to him?

I admit that was my own decision at the time, but I still find it surprising.
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Until a shot it taken at the table, a ball in hand is a ball in hand. He could have juggled the cueball, taken it out for a drink, come back in 2 hours and still be able to place it anywhere on the table, till he shot. Of course if he took the cueball out for a drink and the 2 ball saw him, he may have some explaining to do. Those 2s are jealous *****es.

How is dropping the cueball in a pocket any different than rolling it around the table with your fingers? With a live cueball either of those is a foul.
 
DoubleA

DoubleA

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hang-the-9 said:
Until a shot it taken at the table, a ball in hand is a ball in hand. He could have juggled the cueball, taken it out for a drink, come back in 2 hours and still be able to place it anywhere on the table, till he shot. Of course if he took the cueball out for a drink and the 2 ball saw him, he may have some explaining to do. Those 2s are jealous *****es.

How is dropping the cueball in a pocket any different than rolling it around the table with your fingers? With a live cueball either of those is a foul.
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Yes, but in placing the CB for a shot if he touches another ball with the CB, is that not still a foul?
 
Blue Hog ridr

Blue Hog ridr

World Famous Fisherman.
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If your opponent had just dropped the ball on the floor or from his hand, he could continue with BIH.

He did place the ball on the table and put the ball in, (accidentally), with his cue.

You did a nice gesture allowing him to have BIH but could have argued it in your favor.

The cue ball did leave the table.

I was playing a game one night. Opponent made his shot on the short rail and on drawing his cue back, hit the 8 and also pocketed the 8. Game over.

He argued a bit but I told him, the 8 left the table and it doesn't matter how it left. Its gone.

Not quite the same but close.

Stick handling the ball is ok but no forward motion with the cue. However, the cue was in contact with the cue ball and it is the same as if he had have scratched or miscued on the shot.

Still kind of iffy. If I was asked to Ref, or intervene, in this situation, I might ask you what you would like to see happen and I would support your decision either way.
 
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B

bdorman

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A few weeks ago I had an opponent who had BIH and he nudged an OB while he was adjusting the CB placement with his ferule. He was placing the CB in a pretty crowded spot. In that case I wouldn't have trusted my ability to move it with my ferule; I'd have used my fingers.

The OB only moved about 1/4" so I just told him to put it back and play on.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

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Blue Hog ridr said:
If your opponent had just dropped the ball on the floor or from his hand, he could continue with BIH.

He did place the ball on the table and put the ball in, (accidentally), with his cue.

You did a nice gesture allowing him to have BIH but could have argued it in your favor.

The cue ball did leave the table.

I was playing a game one night. Opponent made his shot on the short rail and on drawing his cue back, hit the 8 and also pocketed the 8. Game over.

He argued a bit but I told him, the 8 left the table and it doesn't matter how it left. Its gone.

Not quite the same but close.

Stick handling the ball is ok but no forward motion with the cue. However, the cue was in contact with the cue ball and it is the same as if he had have scratched or miscued on the shot.

Still kind of iffy. If I was asked to Ref, or intervene, in this situation, I might ask you what you would like to see happen and I would support your decision either way.
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In a cue ball only foul rule, unless the 8 would have gotten in the way of the cueball, the rule would be that the 8 spots up where it was before it got knocked in. It's not a foul since there are no fouls on incidental and accidental contact with other balls in a cue ball foul only game. How about this situation, the 8 gets hung up in a pocket, but the cueball scratches (if we use the rules that if the 8 ball does not drop a scratch is just ball in hand not a loss), the player takes the cueball out to shoot and the vibration knocks the 8 in. That is not counted as a loss, 8 gets placed back where it was.
 
ChopStick

ChopStick

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Sofla said:
I knew about the tip issue, and how it cannot be part of a forward stroke motion.

But barring that, the b-i-h player can, in effect, 'scratch' the cue ball, or 'table foul' the cue ball (by swiping it off the table), and so long as the tip in a forward motion wasn't the cause, no harm no foul, same b-i-h to him?

I admit that was my own decision at the time, but I still find it surprising.
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The cue ball while it is being placed, is not in play. A foul cannot occur until it is put into play by a stroke. Touching an object ball is the only foul that can occur in that situation.

I was at the IPT tournament in Orlando when they had that bullsh$t moving the ball with the shaft rule. They were doing it on the break. Players would put the ball down for the break shot. Get down then adjust the cue ball a fraction of an inch or so with their shaft. The ref called a foul on them. Nonsense. The balls had not been broken nor had a stroke been taken. How can it be a foul when the game had not even started?
 
Bishop

Bishop

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I've just gotten in the habit of not touching the cue ball with anything other than my hand. Too many times have I seen arguments erupt over people manipulating the ball with their cue. Just not worth it.
 
Blue Hog ridr

Blue Hog ridr

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In a cue ball only foul rule, unless the 8 would have gotten in the way of the cueball, the rule would be that the 8 spots up where it was before it got knocked in.
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Are you 100% sure on that Hang? Playing on a Bar Box. Are you going to plug the table to retrieve the 8? Sure, a player can accidentally move any ball with his cue or hand. Opponents choice to move or leave it. The 8 was hit with a cue and pocketed.

As far as I have known, the 8 leaves the table by any other means other than a player shooting it in legally, its game over.

Other than the scenario where the 8 is a hanger. Any ball that happens to is a spot where it was.
 
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hang-the-9

hang-the-9

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Blue Hog ridr said:
Are you 100% sure on that Hang? Playing on a Bar Box. Are you going to plug the table to retrieve the 8? Sure, a player can accidentally move any ball with his cue or hand. Opponents choice to move or leave it. The 8 was hit with a cue and pocketed.

As far as I have known, the 8 leaves the table by any other means other than a player shooting it in legally, its game over.

Other than the scenario where the 8 is a hanger. Any ball that happens to is a spot where it was.
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Bar box rules are iffy. I don't really think about bar tables or bar table tournament rules (not even "bar rules" which we all love LOL, I mean regualr turnaments played on a coin bar table). I would think the bar tender can open up the door for you to get the 8 out or just call is a loss.

But for a rule of making the 8 early if you happen to hit it with your hand, you are not accidentally making the 8 on a shot, you are accidentally making the 8 in a non-foul motion which is hitting it with your cue or hand while shooting another legal shot.

I can't be totally sure what a ref would do in the world championship if that happened and it was cue ball fouls only, but to me it seem right and that is what I would call if the 8 was knocked into a pocket by incidental contact. Look at 9 ball, it's almost the opposite rule, if you make the 9 early, you win right? So lets say you make a 1 ball and then your elbow knocks the 9 in, you don't get credit for the win do you? It may not be pefect logic to match those, but the situations are almost the same just opposite. If you can't get credit for one, you should not be penalized the game for the other.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

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DoubleA said:
Yes, but in placing the CB for a shot if he touches another ball with the CB, is that not still a foul?
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Yes that would be a foul. But since nothing else is touched if you drop a cueball in a pocket or on the floor, that is not a foul. I've done it before, tried to place the cueball behind a ball near a pocket and moved the cueball back just a bit too much and it plopped in. Took it out and lined it up again, no-one moved a muscle to say it was a foul and there were probably 8 players watching.
 
Blue Hog ridr

Blue Hog ridr

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I can't be totally sure what a ref would do
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Happened one game and I got a ruling on it also at a later date but that is how it was ruled that night. Of course, I am not 100% on it either so would be nice if someone that knows could clarify it for us.
 
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