WPBL Lack of Statistics
Old
  (#1)
Wags
2 pocket-one pocket table
Wags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond repute
 
Wags's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: At the Pool Room
   
WPBL Lack of Statistics - 07-01-2013, 07:05 AM

I can't stand it anymore. I need some answers.

First of all, so everyone knows where I am coming from, I fully support the effort of the WPBL and what they are trying to achieve. I may disagree with their tactics some, but, if someone is willing to invest large amount of money into a cuesport endeavor, they get my backing (for what that is worth).

My problem though, is with the scoring, standing and stats. I sit and look at the team standing page and am dumbfounded. Would it be that hard to explain what each of the stat columns means?

I still haven't figured out what Points Back means.

Why are Average Match Points used to determine the standings as opposed to the Match Record W-L? Seems to me that win/loss should be the most important stat. How can a team that is 4-1 be ranked ahead of a team that is 5-0? That just kind of seems stupid (but, maybe it's me). Joe Blow can relate to the Yankees being 4 games out of 1st. Sorry but I can't relate to the Minnesota Outlaws being 1.8 Average Match Points out of 1st. I can relate to Phoenix Fire being 1 win out of 1st.

Where are all the good stats that can be gathered? For me, one of the key elements that pool commentators and fans lack are the statistics. Excuse me, but, where are they. WBPL has everything at their disposal to put our good quality stats, yet all I see is junk. For example:
  • What is the game record for each team plus percentages?
  • What is the breakdown of the game record of 3 player, 2 player and 1 player games plus percentages?
  • How about opponents point run after an error. Then break that down into opponents run after an unforced error and forced error
.
I can list many more but that is the gist.

The same goes for the individual players stats. I see that it is related to how individual player hockey stats are put up. That only makes sense with the game coming from Canada. I have the same problem with the individual stats as with the team stats and the weight given to what player ranks where.

I mean, really, Kennedy deserves the #1 rank with his 19-6 game record, but, Archer as #2 with an 8-7 record is absurd, especially with Frost having an 18-7 record and in 5th place. Sorry, my common sense tells me that Frost is the better player in Bonus Ball and Archer just strung some runs together.

At this point I can say the same thing about the lack of stats for the individuals as I did for the teams. For brevity in this post I will leave it at that.

Two more comments.
I will start another thread titled Bonus Ball Stats we'd like to see.
WPBL, HIRE A COMMUNICATIONS MANAGER!


Jay

Lines I like to hear:

I put myself through college shooting pool.

I play in a pool league.

I'll play anyone in this bar for $100.
  
Reply With Quote

Match record should be the leader!
Old
  (#2)
Diamond69
AzB Silver Member
Diamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Diamond69's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,049
vCash: 528
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Aug 2011
   
Match record should be the leader! - 07-01-2013, 07:23 AM

I agree with you on the main stat.

Won/loss match record should be the main standings stat. Having average match points determine the leader is equivalent to having total runs determine the leader in baseball.

So the Yankees win their first 5 games 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 2-1, and 2-1. They have a 5/0 record and scored 10 runs.

The Red Sox go 4-1, but lose 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 2-1 and win their 5th game 17-5.

Should the Red Sox be in 1st place because they scored 25 runs? NO


The pool Gods. Sometimes they're with you, sometimes they're against you. Deal with it.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
golubushka
....
golubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond reputegolubushka has a reputation beyond repute
 
golubushka's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 426
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2013
   
07-01-2013, 08:16 AM

----------



Last edited by golubushka; 08-30-2013 at 12:16 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Jay,where are you?
Old
  (#4)
sopadre
AzB Silver Member
sopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 138
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SOUTH PADRE <TX
   
Jay,where are you? - 07-01-2013, 08:47 AM

Jay,are you finished with your US pool room tour? Are you back in MN? When is your book coming out? jim
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
Maniac
2manyQ's
Maniac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond reputeManiac has a reputation beyond repute
 
Maniac's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 6,423
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Texas
   
07-01-2013, 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond69 View Post
I agree with you on the main stat.

Won/loss match record should be the main standings stat. Having average match points determine the leader is equivalent to having total runs determine the leader in baseball.

So the Yankees win their first 5 games 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 2-1, and 2-1. They have a 5/0 record and scored 10 runs.

The Red Sox go 4-1, but lose 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 2-1 and win their 5th game 17-5.

Should the Red Sox be in 1st place because they scored 25 runs? NO
No....the Red Sox should be in first place because I hate the Yankees !!!

Maniac (well.....I don't really "hate" them )


Playing cues: 2 Larry Vigus 60" customs, Jacoby D11 w/314-2
Break/jump cues: Larry Vigus 60"dedicated break, Jerico Stinger, Jacoby jump cue
Cases: JB Ultimate Rugged 3x6, 2 Sterling Wave 4x8's, Sterling butterfly



"I try to think, but nothing happens!" Curly Howard
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
justadub
Rattling corners nightly
justadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond reputejustadub has a reputation beyond repute
 
justadub's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 8,491
vCash: 1100
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bangor, Maine
   
07-01-2013, 09:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maniac View Post
No....the Red Sox should be in first place because I hate the Yankees !!!

Maniac (well.....I don't really "hate" them )
I knew there was a good reason that I liked you.


Player: McDermott G203
Break: J & J 2729

"Let's all pile into the sandbagging wahmbulance and talk about it forever and hold each other until the tears dry!" CreeDo

"Just remember to put the troll back under the bridge when you're done playing with him, Dub!" BrokeStroke
  
Reply With Quote
Off topic
Old
  (#7)
Wags
2 pocket-one pocket table
Wags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond repute
 
Wags's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: At the Pool Room
   
Off topic - 07-01-2013, 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sopadre View Post
Jay,are you finished with your US pool room tour? Are you back in MN? When is your book coming out? jim
Good to hear from you Jim. I got to about 150 rooms and had a health setback and soon after I was well, my folks, Dad is 103, Mom is 88 this year needed an able body near by. So yes, I am living in North Oaks. I finished my novel and am awaiting permissions so there is no copywrite violations and then to find a publisher.

Hope everything is as good as always for my favorite Doctor.


Jay

Lines I like to hear:

I put myself through college shooting pool.

I play in a pool league.

I'll play anyone in this bar for $100.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
Wags
2 pocket-one pocket table
Wags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond repute
 
Wags's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: At the Pool Room
   
07-01-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond69 View Post
I agree with you on the main stat.

Won/loss match record should be the main standings stat. Having average match points determine the leader is equivalent to having total runs determine the leader in baseball.

So the Yankees win their first 5 games 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 2-1, and 2-1. They have a 5/0 record and scored 10 runs.

The Red Sox go 4-1, but lose 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 2-1 and win their 5th game 17-5.

Should the Red Sox be in 1st place because they scored 25 runs? NO
Exactly my point! Yours puts it like it is. Thanks


Jay

Lines I like to hear:

I put myself through college shooting pool.

I play in a pool league.

I'll play anyone in this bar for $100.
  
Reply With Quote
no pool halls,just beach,women,beer
Old
  (#9)
sopadre
AzB Silver Member
sopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond reputesopadre has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 138
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SOUTH PADRE <TX
   
no pool halls,just beach,women,beer - 07-02-2013, 07:04 AM

Jay,glad to hear all is ok.I was waiting to see if your tour got close to me down here in South Padre.No pool halls here but the beach and a cold one are waiting for you if you get the time.Good luck on your books.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
nathandumoulin
WPBL / RUNOUT MEDIA
nathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond reputenathandumoulin has a reputation beyond repute
 
nathandumoulin's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,223
vCash: 1825
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV
   
07-02-2013, 07:50 AM

As noted in red:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wags View Post
I still haven't figured out what Points Back means.

Number of match points behind the points leader. Common in almost all pro sports.

Why are Average Match Points used to determine the standings as opposed to the Match Record W-L?

Two reasons.

1) This is done to promote offense. A team like Phoenix who goes for the win is given a higher standing than a team like Minnesota who settles for shootout wins. Regulation wins is more points, and we want to reward teams with that.

2) Unlike most sports where teams usually play roughly the same number of games all season long, the WPBL is all over the place after scheduling teams for various international events. A team like Toronto plays only once when Pittsburgh will have played 5 or 6 times. To make sense of this, we opted to go by averages otherwise whoever had played more games would be ahead.


Where are all the good stats that can be gathered? For me, one of the key elements that pool commentators and fans lack are the statistics. Excuse me, but, where are they. WBPL has everything at their disposal to put our good quality stats, yet all I see is junk. For example:
  • What is the game record for each team plus percentages?
  • What is the breakdown of the game record of 3 player, 2 player and 1 player games plus percentages?
  • How about opponents point run after an error. Then break that down into opponents run after an unforced error and forced error
.
I can list many more but that is the gist.

Only Eric and myself have the know-how to raise production values each week. 2 guys can only do so much when they're busy pumping out live matches 4 days per week. I already do stats on my own time while working 130 hour weeks. have no intent on ruining my life any further. We're in week 5. As for as Im concerned, having live stats as they exist right now is awesome. They will improve in year two if the opportunity arises.

The same goes for the individual players stats. I see that it is related to how individual player hockey stats are put up. That only makes sense with the game coming from Canada. I have the same problem with the individual stats as with the team stats and the weight given to what player ranks where.

I mean, really, Kennedy deserves the #1 rank with his 19-6 game record, but, Archer as #2 with an 8-7 record is absurd, especially with Frost having an 18-7 record and in 5th place. Sorry, my common sense tells me that Frost is the better player in Bonus Ball and Archer just strung some runs together.

Yes. The stats are correct as they are right now. A player who wins a singles match gets a higher value than when they win a team match, given that they shoot 3x more often in a singles match. A guy who has an inferior record can easily be ranked higher than a guy with a superior record, provided he didnt leach his wins from team play. Archer is the perfect example of how he won his singles, yet his team dogged the doubles and team matches.

At this point I can say the same thing about the lack of stats for the individuals as I did for the teams. For brevity in this post I will leave it at that.

Two more comments.
I will start another thread titled Bonus Ball Stats we'd like to see.
WPBL, HIRE A COMMUNICATIONS MANAGER!

I can think about 10 job positions that need to be filled here at the WPBL before a communications manager. lol
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
Wags
2 pocket-one pocket table
Wags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond repute
 
Wags's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: At the Pool Room
   
07-02-2013, 08:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by golubushka View Post
It usually takes a new venture quite a while to get everything going smoothly...I'd guess that it could take a season, or maybe more, to have everything in place....
Sorry to disagree, but, most start up businesses I've been involved with didn't have the luxury of more than one year without turning a profit and a second year of having everything going smoothly. Things had to be done right the first time. Trail and Error with an ongoing business just doesn't seem to work. I believe this is probably the same for the WBPL.

I would like this venture to work and that means getting everything in order right now...not down the road.

I am not saying that I have all the answers to make it successful, far from it. Of course, it would be fun if suggestions were taken to heart and considered. Thick skin and listening to constructive criticism can go a long way in the business world.

Thankyou for your viewpoint. For me it's kinda of like 'everyone gets a participation medal' or 'why can't we all just get along' or an excuse for missing a shot.

Sincerely,


Jay

Lines I like to hear:

I put myself through college shooting pool.

I play in a pool league.

I'll play anyone in this bar for $100.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
watchez
What time is it?
watchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond reputewatchez has a reputation beyond repute
 
watchez's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,620
vCash: 5625
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Join Date: Jan 2005
   
07-02-2013, 08:10 AM

The standings should be like the NHL. 2 points for a regulation win. 1 point for a shootout win. Average points = dumb.


Watchez Is The Teacher


Those who dance are always laughed at by those who don't even hear the f'in music - George Carlin RIP
  
Reply With Quote
I'm confused
Old
  (#13)
nicksaint26
AzB Silver Member
nicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond reputenicksaint26 has a reputation beyond repute
 
nicksaint26's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 826
vCash: 500
iTrader: 28 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
   
I'm confused - 07-02-2013, 08:13 AM

You are scoring by average points instead of wins because some teams play more games than others????? This has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard in a sports league (by the way I want to see anything pool related succeed). You don't think that teams who play more will be better at the game hence they are playing more? Every team should play the same amount of games and points per game should be a tie breaker if a team has the same record or as stated above more points for regulation win than OT win. JMO
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
Diamond69
AzB Silver Member
Diamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond reputeDiamond69 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Diamond69's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,049
vCash: 528
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Aug 2011
   
07-02-2013, 08:38 AM

Why are Average Match Points used to determine the standings as opposed to the Match Record W-L?

Two reasons.

1) This is done to promote offense. A team like Phoenix who goes for the win is given a higher standing than a team like Minnesota who settles for shootout wins. Regulation wins is more points, and we want to reward teams with that.

2) Unlike most sports where teams usually play roughly the same number of games all season long, the WPBL is all over the place after scheduling teams for various international events. A team like Toronto plays only once when Pittsburgh will have played 5 or 6 times. To make sense of this, we opted to go by averages otherwise whoever had played more games would be ahead.



I mean, really, Kennedy deserves the #1 rank with his 19-6 game record, but, Archer as #2 with an 8-7 record is absurd, especially with Frost having an 18-7 record and in 5th place. Sorry, my common sense tells me that Frost is the better player in Bonus Ball and Archer just strung some runs together.

Yes. The stats are correct as they are right now. A player who wins a singles match gets a higher value than when they win a team match, given that they shoot 3x more often in a singles match. A guy who has an inferior record can easily be ranked higher than a guy with a superior record, provided he didnt leach his wins from team play. Archer is the perfect example of how he won his singles, yet his team dogged the doubles and team matches.

Nathan,
On the first point in red. At the end of the season, will all teams have played the same amount of games? I understand your reasoning if it's just an uneven schedule due to timing. But I do think at the end of the season, if all have equal matches, it should be ultimately the W/L team match record.

On the second point in red. This does make sense in my opinion. Singles matches should be more important as you have total control. Maybe something mentioned on the website to avoid confusion may help.

Best to you all!


The pool Gods. Sometimes they're with you, sometimes they're against you. Deal with it.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
Wags
2 pocket-one pocket table
Wags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond reputeWags has a reputation beyond repute
 
Wags's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: At the Pool Room
   
07-02-2013, 08:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathandumoulin View Post
As noted in red:
Thank you for the information and input. It is very much appreciated.

I guess we'll have to disagree about the match win loss record being the important stat with the rankings. From my viewpoint, this is a team competition and should be scored accordingly. Whether a team is offensive or defensive minded will show up in the stats. Apparently, Minnesota has just the right blend of offense/defensive because they have won all their matches.

As for the individual stats, from the information given, I don't know (until you told me) that Archer has a high win% in singles matches. It also tells me that he is a lousy team player. For a team competion, why is the singles being glorified. If it was broken down into triples, doubles and singles categories and a league leader for each, it makes more sense to me.

My analogy to that is: the Minnesota Twins are a below .500 ball club, yet, Joe Mauer is leading the AL in batting %. Consequently, JA should probably be #1 in the singles category game win percentage. JA should get credit as being the winningest single competitor. But, who is the best duo or triple combination? For sure, we know it is not a JA team.

The same would go for a Highest Points per Inning stat. If you want an offensive game, just put a cash prize along with this stat and I'm sure some players will try shots that may be detrimental to the team win/loss just to win the money. (I would hope that it would not be the case but I am guided by 50 years experience).

That is where I am coming from.

Once again, thank you for the quality, quality stream and your explanations so at least I can know there was some thought behind it, even tho' I disagree.

As for the different positions needed...Have you ever thought of asking the forum members for help in certain areas? I know there is a wide range of experts that post here and some might be willing to donate time and effort to help this endeavor succeed. Sometimes, as we get older, we have time and expertise to use as we see fit. It isn't just about, what's in it for me.

Sincerely


Jay

Lines I like to hear:

I put myself through college shooting pool.

I play in a pool league.

I'll play anyone in this bar for $100.
  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.