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One Pocket John
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08-09-2018, 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Kramden View Post
.
1pj... Just for a push/pull cue experiment.. no CB needed.. Get down into a shooting position with your 1st finger against the rail.
Push the cue putting pressure on your finger. Pull the cue putting pressure on your finger. Does your shoulder pressure change?

.
Hey Carl

Pushing the cue adds unwanted stress in the arm and shoulder. Pulling the cue mass forward takes all of that away.
Actually now that I think about it, the lower bicep (the muscle that closes the arm) is taken almost out of the picture all together because once you get the mass started forward you have to stop it somewhere along the line. Like at the cue ball.

John


One Pocket John
St. Louis, MO.

I don't play One Pocket as much as I use to, but when I do, I play at Cue & Cushion - Overland, MO.

In Memory of Dean Higgs and Harry Sims - gone but not forgotten and thank you.
  
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08-09-2018, 08:33 AM

In an effort to know what Earl and Shane are feeling with cue extensions on their cues I decided to build one.

I build my own slip-on cue extensions to make the cue longer for tough shots to get to shots.

I modified one of my extensions by changing the length and weight until it felt more comfortable. My extensions are made from a very light weight material and are weighted internally. Nice little home brew project.

I now know why Earl and Shane use extensions on their cues. It really adds a noticeable feel of mass behind my grip hand. I like it and will continue to use it

My cue is now 73" long and the balance point is at about 14" (instead of it's normal 22" balance point) on the cue (from the cue butt cap. Not from the end of the extension)

John
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One Pocket John
St. Louis, MO.

I don't play One Pocket as much as I use to, but when I do, I play at Cue & Cushion - Overland, MO.

In Memory of Dean Higgs and Harry Sims - gone but not forgotten and thank you.

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08-09-2018, 02:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
I was interested to find a video where they measured stick speed. It immediately became obvious that the cue does not impart all of its momentum to the cue ball. A cue traveling at say 5.5 mph will only drop to say 3.5 mph on a typical shot. Much easier to figure out the cue stick vs cue ball speed empirically (ie, just measure what happens on the table) rather than trying to make assumptions and calculate it. I suspect we'd probably find that Randy is right.

Thanks.
Then the leather tip compresses and absorbs some of the impact...

I have never double hit the CB on a hard break shot.


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08-09-2018, 05:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket John View Post
In an effort to know what Earl and Shane are feeling with cue extensions on their cues I decided to build one.

I build my own slip-on cue extensions to make the cue longer for tough shots to get to shots.
I modified one of my extensions by changing the length and weight until it felt more comfortable. My extensions are made from a very light weight material and are weighted internally. Nice little home brew project.
I now know why Earl and Shane use extensions on their cues. It really adds a noticeable feel of mass behind my grip hand. I like it and will continue to use it
My cue is now 73" long and the balance point is at about 14" (instead of it's normal 22" balance point) on the cue (from the cue butt cap. Not from the end of the extension)
John
Very clever and functional.
I like it.
Are those PVC plumbing nipples? If you don't mind tipping the secret, I'm going to make one for myself.
That's a smart idea and saves a lot of money.
(plus it has to drive the eyeballers just NUTS............."what is that?...where did he get that?.....etc. etc.") That in itself delights me to no end.
If you don't want to put it here in public, that's cool. If you'll reveal the secrets, just post it to me in private message.
Regards,
Lowenstein
  
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08-10-2018, 03:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket John View Post
Hey Carl

Pushing the cue adds unwanted stress in the arm and shoulder. Pulling the cue mass forward takes all of that away.
Actually now that I think about it, the lower bicep (the muscle that closes the arm) is taken almost out of the picture all together because once you get the mass started forward you have to stop it somewhere along the line. Like at the cue ball.

John
This wrist issue is something that's always been confusing and a somewhat contentious.Many different opinions on this even among instructors.
For me its easier to shoot straight if the wrist remains steady.
Some say that flicking your wrist gives a lot more power (Filipino style - aka Bustamente)
That this "cocking" business is to keep the wrist locked - while others say it should move and "uncock" during the follow through.

If its not necessary or there is no real advantage in using the wrist maybe it should just relax.
How about this?
The wrist joint is loose and flexible - but dont actually use the muscles in your wrist or your hand. The wrist and hand only hold the cue while the movement is cause by pulling the forearm forward.
Is that it?

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08-10-2018, 06:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low500 View Post
Very clever and functional.

I like it.

Are those PVC plumbing nipples? If you don't mind tipping the secret, I'm going to make one for myself.

That's a smart idea and saves a lot of money.

(plus it has to drive the eyeballers just NUTS............."what is that?...where did he get that?.....etc. etc.") That in itself delights me to no end.

If you don't want to put it here in public, that's cool. If you'll reveal the secrets, just post it to me in private message.

Regards,

Lowenstein

Finally home.

Good eye, Yes everything is from the plumbing isle at Lowes. Cost a whopping $5.00

I'm working on a new model to allow for weights to be added as needed internally. Got it figured out just need to go to Lowes and pick up the material.
I'll probably spend $6.00 this time.

John


One Pocket John
St. Louis, MO.

I don't play One Pocket as much as I use to, but when I do, I play at Cue & Cushion - Overland, MO.

In Memory of Dean Higgs and Harry Sims - gone but not forgotten and thank you.

Last edited by One Pocket John; 08-10-2018 at 03:06 PM.
  
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Low500
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08-10-2018, 09:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket John View Post
I'm at work right. I'll get back to you tonight.
John
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I'd enjoy hearing how you made yours.
I just completed building one this morning for my Predator 314. I used PVC tubing and a rubber chair leg end piece for the butt. Now to paint it hot pink, so 'they' will think I'm gay...that really pisses them off. I enjoy it while I take their money. (I even use a pink glove) If I could get away with it without getting my ass kicked, I'd wear lipstick to REALLY send them into orbit. (mind games, you know, mind games where most of the battle is really won).
Friend, you are dead on the money about that giving some extra fine balance to the cue stick.
I don't care if it's called "mass" or whatever, I know it sure plays better for me. Especially on those long full table straight ins where there's a tendency to wiggle the stick a little. My stake horse likes it too....and she don't usually like NUTHIN'.
Strickland and SVB don't make bad bets....when those pros speak, it's smart to watch and listen up.
I can't wait to hear the laughs and jeers at the Moose Lodge Tournaments when I bust this thing out on them. How delightful....love it.:
I made a picture of it and may post it here. (of course the know-it-alls will giggle and snicker as usual)....you can imagine how much sleep I will lose over that
Later.
  
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One Pocket John
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08-10-2018, 03:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket John View Post
Finally home.

Good eye, Yes everything is from the plumbing isle at Lowes. Cost a whopping $5.00

I'm working on a new model to allow for weights to be added as needed internally. Got it figured out just need to go to Lowes and pick up the material.
I'll probably spend $6.00 this time.

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low500 View Post
I'd enjoy hearing how you made yours.
I just completed building one this morning for my Predator 314. I used PVC tubing and a rubber chair leg end piece for the butt. Now to paint it hot pink, so 'they' will think I'm gay...that really pisses them off. I enjoy it while I take their money. (I even use a pink glove) If I could get away with it without getting my ass kicked, I'd wear lipstick to REALLY send them into orbit. (mind games, you know, mind games where most of the battle is really won).
Friend, you are dead on the money about that giving some extra fine balance to the cue stick.
I don't care if it's called "mass" or whatever, I know it sure plays better for me. Especially on those long full table straight ins where there's a tendency to wiggle the stick a little. My stake horse likes it too....and she don't usually like NUTHIN'.
Strickland and SVB don't make bad bets....when those pros speak, it's smart to watch and listen up.
I can't wait to hear the laughs and jeers at the Moose Lodge Tournaments when I bust this thing out on them. How delightful....love it.:
I made a picture of it and may post it here. (of course the know-it-alls will giggle and snicker as usual)....you can imagine how much sleep I will lose over that
Later.
The weighting of the extension is at the very end. When down in the shooting position the weight feels like it's way behind your grip hand.

If you watch the players from the Philippines you will notice thyat many of them hold the cue in the middle of the wrap. Doing this allows for a 8" to 9" weight behind their grip hand. That's why when they are down on a shot you will see very little forearm movement just the wrist going back and forth. They can feel the mass behind their grip hand.

Oh, if your going to paint it pink why not go all out and put some black poca-dots on it.

Gotta have supper. Be back later.

John


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St. Louis, MO.

I don't play One Pocket as much as I use to, but when I do, I play at Cue & Cushion - Overland, MO.

In Memory of Dean Higgs and Harry Sims - gone but not forgotten and thank you.
  
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Low500
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08-10-2018, 04:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket John View Post
The weighting of the extension is at the very end. When down in the shooting position the weight feels like it's way behind your grip hand.
If you watch the players from the Philippines you will notice thyat many of them hold the cue in the middle of the wrap. Doing this allows for a 8" to 9" weight behind their grip hand. That's why when they are down on a shot you will see very little forearm movement just the wrist going back and forth. They can feel the mass behind their grip hand.
Oh, if your going to paint it pink why not go all out and put some black poca-dots on it.
Gotta have supper. Be back later.
John
Yesssssssssssssssss !!
A MASTERpiece of 'torment psychology'...dammit why didn't I think of it myself. *Grrrrr at self for not thinking of that.
Polka Dots it shall have....and maybe hang a feather off the end on a little rubber band.
Now all I need is a decal from the Gay Liberation Front (I assume there is such a thing) to stick on the side of my case.
My wife sez: "What're you going to say if some closet gay guy makes a pass at you?"
Answer: I will snarl menacingly and quote some of that old song from the Georgia Satellites........."Don't give me no lines and keep your hands to yourself".

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LAMas
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08-10-2018, 06:05 PM

Follow hit:

The cue tip impacts the ball and the ball accelerates away from the tip and then the ball ceases to accelerate with a small separation between the tip and ball.
Does the cue and tip slow down at impact creating the separation instead?
Thereafter, the cue tip and ball travel at the same speed.

Draw hit:
The separation is greater than with the draw/low hit than the follow/high hit - less friction on the cloth or slippage?
The acceleration from rest or zero continues after separation if still accelerating for an instant.
The "instant" is of little consequence so I yield to Randy - the ball slows down after separation.

http://dbkcues.ru/2011/05/28/new-por...-shot/?lang=en


dumluk

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Low500
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08-10-2018, 08:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAMas View Post
Follow hit:
The cue tip impacts the ball and the ball accelerates away from the tip and then the ball ceases to accelerate with a small separation between the tip and ball.
Does the cue and tip slow down at impact creating the separation instead?
Thereafter, the cue tip and ball travel at the same speed.
Draw hit:
The separation is greater than with the draw/low hit than the follow/high hit - less friction on the cloth or slippage?
The acceleration from rest or zero continues after separation if still accelerating for an instant.
The "instant" is of little consequence so I yield to Randy - the ball slows down after separation.
http://dbkcues.ru/2011/05/28/new-por...-shot/?lang=en
Please don't jump on me as being a smart ass or troublemaker.....I just have to say something here. It's only my opinion, of course.
Is all this stuff really necessary to become a better player or is it just for esoteric discussion? All for fun, if you will.
If it's just for fun, then have at it and enjoy.
If for improving at the game, I can't buy into it.
Here's where I have to agree with those who preach "just hit a million balls". (although I do think that hitting that million balls in the correct spot is a lot better than just hitting them). Just stay at the table popping those balls....after all, pool is an outcome based game. The ball either goes into the pocket or it doesn't. I personally could care less about the why or what happens during the collision.
Again, not looking for trouble. I admit to being way too practical at times, just my cross to bear I guess.
  
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LAMas
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08-10-2018, 08:10 PM

Just "Controlling the Mass.".


dumluk
  
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08-11-2018, 04:36 AM

I'm going to be talking about a couple of terms here that some may not be familiar with.
If your not familiar with them just remember "Google is your friend"

1. Ape Index
2. Gait

I'm 6'-2" tall and have an ape index of 6'-2". My gait is a normal and comfortable step froward.

I think that historically cue builders have built their cues to have an overall length of 58" with a balance point at about 18" measured from the butt end cap.

My cue as purchased was 58" long and had a balance point at about 18".
Since my ape index is so large most of my grip hand was never on the wrap. Which left very little mass behind my grip, maybe a couple of inches.

A few years ago I was watching some pro's play on YouTube and they were using a mid cue extension called "Balance Rite". (3.75" long and weighs 2 oz)

I thought okay I'll give it a shot, ordered one and put it on my cue. This increased the length of the cue from 58" to 62" and added 2 oz of weight to the total cue weight. I had to experiment with the weight screw in the butt. Finally got that right, the total weight of the cue now is 20 oz with a 22" balance point and the cue feels very comfortable to play with.

Adding 3.75" to the length of the cue now allowed me to move my grip hand onto the wrap, with 1" of wrap showing behind my grip hand. Now I had 5" of mass behind my grip hand. My normal bridge distance is 8" to 10" where I can use it.

I really like the Balance Rite, now I can have my hand on the wrap I paid for.

The old saying goes, hold the cue lightly and let the cue do all the work. That's all fine and dandy if you have sufficient mass behind your grip hand to allow for that to happen.

If you don't have enough mass behind your grip hand to allow for the cue to do all the work, then what happens is you compensate for this by trying to push the cue forward in a straight line. This introduces a lot of unwanted tension in the grip hand, lower bicep and possibly the shoulder.

I have been around pool since 1963 and will try anything to make this game more enjoyable for me.

Adding this weighted butt extension to my cue has opened up a whole new opportunity for me to really begin playing well. By the way, the length of the mass behind my grip hand has went from 5" to 17" and feels great. The cue is now doing all the work and I'm just guiding (pulling) the mass behind my grip forward and down a straight line.
I feel absolutely no tension anywhere in my grip hand, arm or upper arm/shoulder. If fact the upper arm/shoulder are not even in the equation any more. If the upper arm drops it's only because the mass of the cue is pulling it down.

I want to say that if your one of these players that gets to hold there grip hand in the middle of the wrap I'm real happy for you.

So, if your one of these players that has very little mass behind your grip hand give it a shot, build the extension and try it out. For $5.00 you cant go wrong. All of the materials are at Lowes.

Have a nice weekend.

John


One Pocket John
St. Louis, MO.

I don't play One Pocket as much as I use to, but when I do, I play at Cue & Cushion - Overland, MO.

In Memory of Dean Higgs and Harry Sims - gone but not forgotten and thank you.

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08-11-2018, 05:43 AM

I have a very short backswing. People have commented for years how ugly my stroke is (including me lol). But.... my ugly stroke keeps me in action because even after I beat someone they canít believe it . True story.


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08-11-2018, 06:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket John View Post
The old saying goes, hold the cue lightly and let the cue do all the work. That's all fine and dandy if you have sufficient mass behind your grip hand to allow for that to happen.
If you don't have enough mass behind your grip hand to allow for the cue to do all the work, then what happens is you compensate for this by trying to push the cue forward in a straight line. This introduces a lot of unwanted tension in the grip hand, lower bicep and possibly the shoulder.
I have been around pool since 1963 and will try anything to make this game more enjoyable for me.
Adding this weighted butt extension to my cue has opened up a whole new opportunity for me to really begin playing well. By the way, the length of the mass behind my grip hand has went from 5" to 17" and feels great. The cue is now doing all the work and I'm just guiding (pulling) the mass behind my grip forward and down a straight line.
I feel absolutely no tension anywhere in my grip hand, arm or upper arm/shoulder. If fact the upper arm/shoulder are not even in the equation any more. If the upper arm drops it's only because the mass of the cue is pulling it down.
I want to say that if your one of these players that gets to hold there grip hand in the middle of the wrap I'm real happy for you.
So, if your one of these players that has very little mass behind your grip hand give it a shot, build the extension and try it out. For $5.00 you cant go wrong. All of the materials are at Lowes.
John
As far as I'm concerned, all of what I've edited from your post as it relates to me is the absolute gospel truth. And I started going into pool rooms in 1953. Yep not '63 like you, but '53.
I also used the balance rite middle extension for a while. Didn't help much...now it is in the junk box.
This homemade "tail end" extension idea of yours is the stone cold nuts!
No longer do I start getting that sneaky feeling of 'scare' rising up in the gut when I'm faced with that full length table shot with CB frozen on the rail. And believe me, I've spent the hours trying to be comfortable and proficient on those shots....hours and hours for years. Had some very good coaching on it too, along the way. (not from fat belly big shots, but from real hitters who played for the cheese...Mizerak, Martin, Jones, Squirrel, Robin Bell, Jimmy Reid and more.) Stan Shuffett's "poke stroke" off the rail helped a lot, but not quite good enough for an old lock artist like me.
I still don't want to shoot them, they're tough, but that "mass behind the grip" makes it a whole lot better. And when the guy misses an easy shot, that is exactly where I always seem to get left....frozen on that rail a mile away from the hole.
For the few bucks invested, a person can't really go wrong in trying it out. He can always just throw the thing way if it doesn't work. Certainly not like spending 80-100 dollars for something and then being disappointed.
You're a pretty sharp old bird. Gotta' hand it to you.

Last edited by Low500; 08-11-2018 at 06:53 AM.
  
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