does a ref warn a player breaking outside the box or call foul?

Tin Man

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My title says it all. The question came up whether a ref in a pro event would warn the player if they were about to break illegally, or if they'd wait and then call foul. Or suppose a player reached for a jump cue when no jump cues were allowed in the tournament. Would they let the player jump the ball and then call foul?

What is their policy? Thanks!
 

DecentShot

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My title says it all. The question came up whether a ref in a pro event would warn the player if they were about to break illegally, or if they'd wait and then call foul. Or suppose a player reached for a jump cue when no jump cues were allowed in the tournament. Would they let the player jump the ball and then call foul?

What is their policy? Thanks!


In my opinion if I was in a pro tournament, and I saw a ref PREVENT my opponent from fouling? That to me is collusion. Can a poker dealer give advice before showdown? It could lead to all kinds of conflict of interests.
 

bbb

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I am not a referee but I would think the ref is there to call fouls and enforce the rules
Not give warnings before a foul is committed.
A different question somewhat related is the opponent OBLIGATED to warn the opponent?
 
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8cree

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The other week when Efrin was playing, the ref made him move his cue back in the box, twice. To the point Efrin pick up the ball, and placed in down firmly about 4 inches behind the line with a little annoyance to the ref... probably the only time I've seen him show a little emotion during a match. Pretty sure he lost the set but I can't remember exactly what game or who he was playing, I just know it was within the last couple weeks or so.

So to answer the part of your question about the break box, at that tournament, yes the ref "warns" them before they make the bad shot.
 

Bob Jewett

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My title says it all. The question came up whether a ref in a pro event would warn the player if they were about to break illegally, or if they'd wait and then call foul. Or suppose a player reached for a jump cue when no jump cues were allowed in the tournament. Would they let the player jump the ball and then call foul?

What is their policy? Thanks!
The ref must not warn the player that the cue ball is outside the box. Or at least, that is the rule now for playing from the kitchen. Similarly, the ref should not offer advice about how to play including how to avoid equipment fouls.

The player can ask about in/out for the cue ball's position.

If a player has gotten to the table without knowing whether jump cues are allowed or not, someone has made a mistake.

From the WSR Regulations about the ref's duties:

... He must not give advice on the application of the rules, or other points of play on which he is not required by the rules to speak. He may assist the player by getting and replacing the mechanical bridge. If necessary for the shot, the referee or a deputy may hold the light fixture out of the way. ...

The referee shall answer players’ inquiries regarding objective data, such as whether a ball will be in the rack, whether a ball is behind the head string, what the count is, how many points are needed for a victory, if a player or his opponent is on a foul, what rule would apply if a certain shot is made, etc. ...​

The World Standardized Rules and Regulations are available here: https://wpapool.com/

It used to be that if the player placed the cue ball outside the kitchen when he had ball in hand (in the kitchen), the ref had to warn him before he shot. That is no longer the rule. It is the player's responsibility to place the cue ball correctly.
 

Bob Jewett

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The other week when Efren was playing, the ref made him move his cue back in the box, twice. To the point Efren pick up the ball, and placed in down firmly about 4 inches behind the line with a little annoyance to the ref......
I wonder if the ref was using the "ball entirely in the box" rule. Of course, in/out is determined by the center (some say "base") of the ball relative to the line. Is there video?
 

8cree

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I wonder if the ref was using the "ball entirely in the box" rule. Of course, in/out is determined by the center (some say "base") of the ball relative to the line. Is there video?

As far as the ball goes, it's probably on who you ask or who set the rule on "whole ball" or "base of the ball" over the line...

And I'm not sure if the vid is on the youtube yet or not, I can't remember if it was a poolactiontv match or what... it wasn't that long ago, a few weeks at most. Maybe someone can help my memory out.
 

Maniac

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I saw on a YouTube match recently (it was a pretty recent match also) where jump cues were not allowed. During a shot, the player proceeded to get his jump cue out of his case and jump over the offending ball, but missed the shot. It was then the incoming opponent told the guy that jumped that jump cues were not allowed in the tournament, and that player broke his jumper down and put it back into his case.

That was a bit weird to me.

I wonder what would have transpired had the jumper succeeded in making that shot? I'd be willing to bet that a foul would have been called, but who knows? Maybe it was just a case of sportsmanship. We'll never know.

As far as the referees warning players of an oncoming foul due to a rules violation....should never happen, IMO. These problems could be mostly eliminated if ALL the players attended the players meetings and stayed awake.

Maniac (notice I said "mostly")

Maniac
 

pt109

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As a player, with no referee, I would notify my opponent when he’s breaking illegally.
...after all, if I tell him after he shoots, how can I prove it?

If the ref doesn’t like “base of the ball”, I will appeal......
...at snooker, I’ve never been warned about putting the cue ball on a D-color spot.
 

Dan_B

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hey Tin Man,
we're dealing with a call on a foul also. The who and when.

Your ? in this house is; it is the opponent's call to tell Efron he's not in the box.

If Efron breaks and pockets the money ball from outside of the box you loose for the
snooze, which is where we're at on a particular foul situation.

In 4 Ball the racks that rack on the outside sight,(third sight from the center) must be
shot initially from the other side of table (looking at the table as a tennis court - there's
2 sides of the table). If a players down on the shot, makes the call and the opponent
says cool, no foul. Was it unintentional or not?
Like in golf, player integrity is paramount.

It's a touchy situation, you want the game to run smooth from spectator point of view.

In a big match of prime time players the ref talking the game with the players would
be an interest to the gathering crowds, rather than handing out penalties all the time.

I mean, what if the ref fixed the low air pressure on Brady's football, would the game have been better off?
Especially if there was an on field back and forth with the ref telling the quarterback
that he fixed that for him, the football with a little smile. Just don't do it again...
 

jrctherake

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Every player should know and follow the rules for the tournament they are playing.

Nobody should feel the need to warn anyone about anything while in game play.

However, discussing the rules before hand is a good idea eventhough, it will not change the rules regardless of who agrees or disagrees.

Knowledge is power.

Jeff
 

FranCrimi

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If the game doesn't start until the player breaks from the box then the ref can stop the player. If the game does start and the player would be charged with a foul, then the ref can't interfere and has to allow the player to commit the foul.
 
Yeah but how can a pro not know where to break from? Seems a bit redundant. Besides the point, I think it would make more sense to take a second by the ref to warn a player against an illegal break before it happens rather than to get into a conflict about an illegal break after it happens and waste everyone's time reracking. I mean the ref is there to save time essentially, right? Instead of wasting time arguing about this or that rule, the ref just decides on the spot and shuts everyone up.
 

Bob Jewett

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Yeah but how can a pro not know where to break from? Seems a bit redundant. Besides the point, I think it would make more sense to take a second by the ref to warn a player against an illegal break before it happens rather than to get into a conflict about an illegal break after it happens and waste everyone's time reracking. I mean the ref is there to save time essentially, right? Instead of wasting time arguing about this or that rule, the ref just decides on the spot and shuts everyone up.
Well, no, not really.
 

iusedtoberich

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I've seen Ken Shuman warn players tons of times both on video and in person at the DCC. He "hand waves" to motion to push the CB back.
 

9BallKY

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I've seen Ken Shuman warn players tons of times both on video and in person at the DCC. He "hand waves" to motion to push the CB back.

He made sure the cue ball was inside the box before every game. Several times he had the players move the cue ball back before they broke.
 

Nostroke

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I wonder if the ref was using the "ball entirely in the box" rule. Of course, in/out is determined by the center (some say "base") of the ball relative to the line. Is there video?

The 'confusion' on that is why, imo, refs usually give a warning. I have NEVER seen one call foul but im sure they have on occasion-yet no here has mentioned one.
 
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