Some people are un-teachable!

S

Secaucus Fats

Banned
I have been teaching the basics to local newbies for quite some time now. The guys I teach are mostly younger players in their early 20's who come to me and express a sincere desire to learn the game. I have never charged anyone for lessons, I only ask that they pay the table time at the local pool room, or the quarters for the bar table at the pub. A couple of the more dedicated guys I have taught are now B+ players and on their way to being A players.

There's one guy who asked me to teach him and after attempting to get him to listen I have given up and told him I will no longer waste my time with him.

The problem is that this individual feels a need to dispute everything I tell him.
For instance, I told him about the importance of a full follow through and freezing after the shot until the object ball is pocketed. His response was: "What difference does it make? Once the ball is struck, freezing in place won't have any effect on the shot, same thing for follow through!".

I explained all the reasons for proper form and execution and he still kept arguing. Finally I just told him "Look, YOU came to me because you can't play worth a damn, I didn't seek you out. You and I are going to have to part company because I think you are un-teachable".

For those of you who teach others, how often do you run into this problem? I would suspect that for the professional instructors this wouldn't happen too often because their students are already motivated and are paying for their lessons. How do you handle guys who won't go along with the program?

Fats
 
PKM

PKM

OB-1 Kenobi
Silver Member
I could kind of see why someone would have that objection about follow-through and freezing on the shot (especially if you're exaggerating the freeze to make sure he does it), but if you've tried to explain it there's not much else to do. Give him a refund and send him packing...
 
S

Snoogi

Guest
Secaucus Fats said:
I have been teaching the basics to local newbies for quite some time now. The guys I teach are mostly younger players in their early 20's who come to me and express a sincere desire to learn the game. I have never charged anyone for lessons, I only ask that they pay the table time at the local pool room, or the quarters for the bar table at the pub. A couple of the more dedicated guys I have taught are now B+ players and on their way to being A players.

There's one guy who asked me to teach him and after attempting to get him to listen I have given up and told him I will no longer waste my time with him.

The problem is that this individual feels a need to dispute everything I tell him.
For instance, I told him about the importance of a full follow through and freezing after the shot until the object ball is pocketed. His response was: "What difference does it make? Once the ball is struck, freezing in place won't have any effect on the shot, same thing for follow through!".

I explained all the reasons for proper form and execution and he still kept arguing. Finally I just told him "Look, YOU came to me because you can't play worth a damn, I didn't seek you out. You and I are going to have to part company because I think you are un-teachable".

For those of you who teach others, how often do you run into this problem? I would suspect that for the professional instructors this wouldn't happen too often because their students are already motivated and are paying for their lessons. How do you handle guys who won't go along with the program?

Fats
Click to expand...
I suppose you didn't charge him a fee, or he would've been more serious. Just like those martial arts movies whereby the mentor teach for any reasons except money. Could be an atitude problem, the way I see it.
 
matcase

matcase

Blondie's #1 fan
Silver Member
Ahh yes, the "who says so" syndrome. You did well telling the student that he asked you for a lesson. Some people only want you to teach them that they aren't doing anything wrong. Like with any other disfunction, progress cannot be made unless the problem is recognized by the seeker.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Secaucus Fats said:
... For those of you who teach others, how often do you run into this problem? I would suspect that for the professional instructors this wouldn't happen too often because their students are already motivated and are paying for their lessons. How do you handle guys who won't go along with the program?

Fats
Click to expand...
This only happened once to me that I can recall. After refusing to address the cue ball during the standard pre-shot routine (PSR), the student pointed out to me in detail in front of others that I could not teach. Two interesting details: the class was for instructor trainees, so I was not trying to teach him how to play, I was trying to teach him how to demonstrate PSR to others. And, he was a school administrator as his day job. I thought that asking him to get in position and bring his tip up to the cue ball was a reasonable enough request under the circumstances.

I can recall one other time that I saw a similar reality disconnect response from someone. I was discussing aiming compensation for side spin with an instructor who's name you would probably recognize. I was making some comment about playing with maximum side spin, and proposed that he shoot a particular shot with the stick all the way out on the ball. He refused to even consider shooting the shot that way. Not even one time. Evidently he had decided early in his career that he would never hit the ball more than half of max side spin, and he was sticking to his decision.
 
J

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that teaching is about questioning. I like to have people like him in the university classroom.

The fellow you describe I would have him try it his way 10 times with me setting up or describing the shots. Next have him try it my way. Then let him judge based on shot completion if it is worth while.

If someone is less than sincere, I refer to another person.
 
Stones

Stones

YEAH, I'M WOOFING AT YOU!
Silver Member
I've had a few people over the years that came to me for instruction and then wanted to argue about every point I was trying to make. I just told them to have a nice life and not waste my or their time again.

Funny, last night at the pool room I ran into an old friend named Chip that had just picked the game back up after an 8 year lay off. As this was his fourth day back playing, he was pretty rusty.

He had a friend with him that had recently started playing also. Chip asked me to help him and his friend as to what they were doing wrong. Basically, Chip was simply aligning his feet differently each time he addressed the shot. His friend was using an open hand brigde and as he stroked the shot, he lifted his cue up like he was duck hunting.

I worked with them for about a half an hour and by the end of it, they had improved fantastically from just a few small adjustments and were talking about taking a road trip!

Just the other end of the spectrum. It's nice to see the gratification of success when they do understand what you're teaching them.

Stones
 
Gregg

Gregg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's called the "APA".

LOL

Sorry, but some of the shooters have no intention of learning to play better. They just show up week after week, give it their best on game night, and hope for the best.

Not a mentality I can relate to, but what can you do?
 
I

I rack balls

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The way I usually do it is beat them to a pulp on the table. Beat them so badly that when they finally win a game they go to rack anyways. Then they usually listen to everything I have to say :) If they have no potential I don't bother even trying to correct terrible mechanics.

Eric.
 
deadstroke7

deadstroke7

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some times...

The world is tough and some people insist on making it tougher.

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. :cool:
 
Icon of Sin

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
Gregg said:
It's called the "APA".

LOL

Sorry, but some of the shooters have no intention of learning to play better. They just show up week after week, give it their best on game night, and hope for the best.

Not a mentality I can relate to, but what can you do?
Click to expand...
Sounds like the lower half of my team LOL.
 
Tom In Cincy

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
I like the idea you are promoting pool by leading by example and helping the newer players understand a little more about the game and how to play.

Thanks for stepping up.

Sorry to hear about the JERK... please don't let this stop you from contributing.
 
SCCues

SCCues

< Searing Twins
Silver Member
Gregg said:
It's called the "APA".

LOL

Sorry, but some of the shooters have no intention of learning to play better. They just show up week after week, give it their best on game night, and hope for the best.

Not a mentality I can relate to, but what can you do?
Click to expand...
I've known people for years that play pool in the local pool leagues and they play the same speed today as they did when I first met them. It's just amazing to me that they either don't have the talent to get better or they don't care if they get any better.
 
worriedbeef

worriedbeef

The Voice of Reason
Silver Member
SCCues said:
I've known people for years that play pool in the local pool leagues and they play the same speed today as they did when I first met them. It's just amazing to me that they either don't have the talent to get better or they don't care if they get any better.
Click to expand...

it's staggering sometimes isn't it.

pool seems to be one of those very few games that so many people play for a long long time, but never feel any desire to improve at.

it's because of the image and reputation of the game at the end of the day. to most people, pool is something you do while drinking a beer, so they don't put it alongside other sports where it's universally accepted that there's a science and many elements of the game you need to learn. it's like they don't see pool like this, so when you tell them something, they feel they know quite a bit too and they can dispute it. in reality, they know jack. also, pool is one of those games as well that people think they're better than they are at. so it's harder for them to get in a learning mindset.

it's depressing being a pool player/fan sometimes isn't it!
 
PKM

PKM

OB-1 Kenobi
Silver Member
worriedbeef said:
it's staggering sometimes isn't it.

pool seems to be one of those very few games that so many people play for a long long time, but never feel any desire to improve at.

it's because of the image and reputation of the game at the end of the day. to most people, pool is something you do while drinking a beer, so they don't put it alongside other sports where it's universally accepted that there's a science and many elements of the game you need to learn. it's like they don't see pool like this, so when you tell them something, they feel they know quite a bit too and they can dispute it. in reality, they know jack. also, pool is one of those games as well that people think they're better than they are at. so it's harder for them to get in a learning mindset.

it's depressing being a pool player/fan sometimes isn't it!
Click to expand...

Very true, I used to think that way too. For a long time I would bang some balls around every once in a while, I never knew anyone who really played and it never even occurred to me to try to learn the game. I'm not even sure why I finally decided, I think I played a little more regularly and started playing half-way decent (for a banger), and then wanted to learn some more.
 
S

SPINDOKTOR

lool wtf??
Silver Member
I enjoy helping people for free at times, and if they listen and I see they are trying to apply it to thier game, I will offer more assistance, I do not try to force them to do anything, If they are willing to take your advice and put it to practice then they earned the right for further assistance, if not answer qustions and be nice but dont try to alter thier game. When they have lost enough money or tourneys they will return with a better attitude. until then do not play these people, or offer any assistance.

SPINDOKTOR
 
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sjm

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
SPINDOKTOR said:
I enjoy helping people for free at times, and if they listen and I see they are trying to apply it to thier game, I will offer more assistance, I do not try to force them to do anything, If they are willing to take your advice and put it to practice then they earned the right for further assistance, if not answer qustions and be nice but dont try to alter thier game.
Click to expand...

I take the exact same view when I offer free assistance.
 
C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
Secaucus Fats said:
I have been teaching the basics to local newbies for quite some time now. The guys I teach are mostly younger players in their early 20's who come to me and express a sincere desire to learn the game. I have never charged anyone for lessons, I only ask that they pay the table time at the local pool room, or the quarters for the bar table at the pub. A couple of the more dedicated guys I have taught are now B+ players and on their way to being A players.

There's one guy who asked me to teach him and after attempting to get him to listen I have given up and told him I will no longer waste my time with him.

The problem is that this individual feels a need to dispute everything I tell him.
For instance, I told him about the importance of a full follow through and freezing after the shot until the object ball is pocketed. His response was: "What difference does it make? Once the ball is struck, freezing in place won't have any effect on the shot, same thing for follow through!".

I explained all the reasons for proper form and execution and he still kept arguing. Finally I just told him "Look, YOU came to me because you can't play worth a damn, I didn't seek you out. You and I are going to have to part company because I think you are un-teachable".

For those of you who teach others, how often do you run into this problem? I would suspect that for the professional instructors this wouldn't happen too often because their students are already motivated and are paying for their lessons. How do you handle guys who won't go along with the program?

Fats
Click to expand...

I'm definitely not a pool instructor but I was at one time guitar teacher. What I have learned is that you can avoid such situations by offering an explanation for whatever you tell them. Why does doing X cause Y to occur? You get better results from your students if they know why something makes a difference. Beyond that the advice will stick in their mind, and they are less likely to discount it later.

But I do agree that some people just aren't open to be taught. They just want you to tell them that either

A They just need to aim in a certain manner which will cause them to be a pro.

or

B They aren't doing anything wrong and they could be amazing if they played just a little bit more, or just a little bit longer.

Sadly this is never the case.

Finally there are also the students who feel practice is unneccessary. I honestly believe that one of my guitar students would pick up his guitar once a week and ask himself "Am I awsome yet?", then procceed to make noise for 5-10 minutes and conclude "Nope, I'll try back next week."
 
JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Secaucus Fats said:
I have been teaching the basics to local newbies for quite some time now. The guys I teach are mostly younger players in their early 20's who come to me and express a sincere desire to learn the game. I have never charged anyone for lessons, I only ask that they pay the table time at the local pool room, or the quarters for the bar table at the pub. A couple of the more dedicated guys I have taught are now B+ players and on their way to being A players.

There's one guy who asked me to teach him and after attempting to get him to listen I have given up and told him I will no longer waste my time with him.

The problem is that this individual feels a need to dispute everything I tell him.
For instance, I told him about the importance of a full follow through and freezing after the shot until the object ball is pocketed. His response was: "What difference does it make? Once the ball is struck, freezing in place won't have any effect on the shot, same thing for follow through!".

I explained all the reasons for proper form and execution and he still kept arguing. Finally I just told him "Look, YOU came to me because you can't play worth a damn, I didn't seek you out. You and I are going to have to part company because I think you are un-teachable".

For those of you who teach others, how often do you run into this problem? I would suspect that for the professional instructors this wouldn't happen too often because their students are already motivated and are paying for their lessons. How do you handle guys who won't go along with the program?

Fats
Click to expand...

Fats, it sounds like Deja vu all over again. :)

Maybe you should give that student Scott Lee's or Randy Goettlicher's phone number. :D

JoeyA
 
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