Surprising result at end of rack

Dan White · Aug 11, 2016

I'm using this thread to test out this pool table diagram software, since the CueTable isn't available any more. The image looks kind of soft.

Anyway, I left myself in bad shape with two balls on the table. My only shot was a combination into the side pocket. I hit the shot and ended up with a perfect break ball/cue ball situation, as diagrammed. I had a big laugh when this happened because I had given up on the rack as a failure and just kind of slopped in the combination.

Moral of the story... don't give up, at least not before looking at all the possibilities!

john coloccia · Aug 11, 2016

I love it when stuff like that happens. Just one question: did you consider the 8 in the upper left corner? From there, the cue ball anywhere on the 12 ball side of the rack, or in the rack, would have left a workable break shot I think. I'm going to have to remember to look for stuff like this, though. I'm just now barely getting to the point that I can work my way around and actually manufacture a reasonable break shot. My runs are still low because inevitably do something stupid and completely botch a position, or just plain miss an easy shot. I don't make it past 10 or 15 too often. Stupid mental errors.

michael4 · Aug 11, 2016

I would have tried to cut the 8 into the upper left corner pocket

<-----always leaving myself in bad shape

Dan White · Aug 11, 2016

john coloccia said:
I love it when stuff like that happens. Just one question: did you consider the 8 in the upper left corner? From there, the cue ball anywhere on the 12 ball side of the rack, or in the rack, would have left a workable break shot I think.

Well, in the actual situation the balls were a bit closer together so there really weren't any other shot options. I think the only way you can really comment on the actual situation is if we were looking at a photograph of the layout. This is a common occurrence, though. Someone diagrams a shot to illustrate a point, not realizing that people will look for alternatives based on the inexact reproduction of the shot.

Having said that, if we look at the diagram I posted, I think you would be hard pressed to pocket the 8 in the upper left corner and still keep the cue ball near the rail above the 12 ball. I assume you were considering to shoot the 12 into the lower side pocket, correct?

Dan White · Aug 11, 2016

michael4 said:
I would have tried to cut the 8 into the upper left corner pocket

<-----always leaving myself in bad shape

If we assume the actual shot is as diagrammed (which it wasn't quite) the question is whether it is easier to make the combination and get a break shot, or to pocket the 8 ball and get a break shot. As I unwittingly found out, the combination provided an automatic break shot. I don't see any such opportunity by pocketing the 8 in the corner. You can't make the 8 and hold the cue ball near the rail for the 12 in the lower side. So you have to make a semi-circus shot position play to get a good break ball position.

Which is easier - make the combination with automatic position, or make the 8 with multi-rail position? I think the combination is the better option, assuming you have reasonable proficiency with combinations. In fact I'll go out on a limb and say that I think making the combo is asignificantly higher percentage than making the 8 AND getting good cue ball position for most players.

john coloccia · Aug 11, 2016

Dan White said:
Well, in the actual situation the balls were a bit closer together so there really weren't any other shot options. I think the only way you can really comment on the actual situation is if we were looking at a photograph of the layout. This is a common occurrence, though. Someone diagrams a shot to illustrate a point, not realizing that people will look for alternatives based on the inexact reproduction of the shot.

Having said that, if we look at the diagram I posted, I think you would be hard pressed to pocket the 8 in the upper left corner and still keep the cue ball near the rail above the 12 ball. I assume you were considering to shoot the 12 into the lower side pocket, correct?

Not trying to second guess you. I think you're probably a much better straight pool player than I am so just wondering why you choose what you did.

I was actually thinking back and forth 2 rails, trying to leave it in the pack and just take it behind the head string. If I come a little too far, lower left or lower side pockets work. I actually kind of like the side pocket one. I never seem to get into trouble from there.

Dan White · Aug 11, 2016

john coloccia said:
I was actually thinking back and forth 2 rails, trying to leave it in the pack and just take it behind the head string. If I come a little too far, lower left or lower side pockets work. I actually kind of like the side pocket one. I never seem to get into trouble from there.

See my post above yours. I think knowing what I know about the automatic position, I think the combo is a better option for me. I'd say the make percentage on that particular combo was maybe 50%. It was probably a bit tougher to make than I diagrammed.

Of course there is a very good saying that floats around this forum form time to time. If you really want to know, set up the shot both ways and shoot it 10 times each way. Whichever one had the greater number of successes is your better option.

michael4 · Aug 11, 2016

My final comments:
Since I find myself out of line often, I'm used to (having to) pick off balls from the rack area and send them up table into corner pockets. As mentioned, you cant hold the CB on these thin cuts, its gonna go two rails, side to side.

If you shoot the combo 10 times, even if you make it 10 times, you wont have a break shot 10 times. It seems easy enough to leave the CB in the right area (we all practice CB shape on every shot), but getting the object ball in the right place, after the combo, is not practiced often and very hard to predict.

Your moral is good, never give up, good things can happen :grin:

Edit: I thought it was sound strategy to take the hard shot over the combo most of the time?

alstl · Aug 12, 2016

michael4 said:
I would have tried to cut the 8 into the upper left corner pocket

<-----always leaving myself in bad shape

+1

Might have to go 3 rails to get position for the break shot and speed would be difficult but when you leave that layout as your final two balls there aren't any ideal options.

stevekur1 · Aug 12, 2016

Dan White said:
I'm using this thread to test out this pool table diagram software, since the CueTable isn't available any more. The image looks kind of soft.

Anyway, I left myself in bad shape with two balls on the table. My only shot was a combination into the side pocket. I hit the shot and ended up with a perfect break ball/cue ball situation, as diagrammed. I had a big laugh when this happened because I had given up on the rack as a failure and just kind of slopped in the combination.

Moral of the story... don't give up, at least not before looking at all the possibilities!

I often play for and look for shots like this, they are fun to play and great to learn to control the first ball in a combination like this.

Often times when an opponent leaves the table and usually if they are a lesser player you are left with no viable breakshots. So you are faced with having to manufacture something and this is a great example.

Nice Post !
Steve the Commish

measureman · Aug 12, 2016

Dan White said:
I'm using this thread to test out this pool table diagram software, since the CueTable isn't available any more. The image looks kind of soft.

Anyway, I left myself in bad shape with two balls on the table. My only shot was a combination into the side pocket. I hit the shot and ended up with a perfect break ball/cue ball situation, as diagrammed. I had a big laugh when this happened because I had given up on the rack as a failure and just kind of slopped in the combination.

Moral of the story... don't give up, at least not before looking at all the possibilities!

Years ago I watched Johnny Ervillino butcher a rack of 14.1 so bad it was comical to watch. Banks,caroms.combos.But he got out.

Dan White · Aug 12, 2016

michael4 said:
Edit: I thought it was sound strategy to take the hard shot over the combo most of the time?

I don't agree with this. I've seen too many videos of HOF players teaching students. The student says, "Oh I hate combinations. I suck at them." Instead of the response they are hoping to hear like about how hard combinations are and you should avoid them, instead they say, "You better learn to get good at them. You can't be afraid of them." That's from guys like DiLiberto and I think even Ray Martin says it on that video someone posted recently. I find the straighter and better your stroke is, the easier combinations get. That's not to say every combination is one you should attempt, but there are many that should be considered high percentage shots.

There's one video of Mosconi where I think his first 3 shots of the rack are all combinations!

Surprising result at end of rack

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