Ball in hand

Icon of Sin said:

You have ball in hand on the ball before the 8 and the 8 ball has 5 available pockets... am I missing something here?

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You have to go at least 4 rails to qualify to get out.

SHORTY WRIGHT said:

How do you get on the eight ball from here you are solids and where does the eight ball go ? Thnx

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You could put the cue close to the rail around where the 13 is, then pot the 1 with slow* speed and a bit of top and roll the CB out just past the head spot for a shot in the corner. If it rolls too far you still have the 8 in the side.

(*) depends on the speed of the clothe and balls.

ugotactionTX said:

is this a trick question? there's a 1/2 dozen ways to get out from here.

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i was thinking the same

order of operations

Bob Jewett said:

Yes. A huge advantage of the rolling-with-outside way is that it works almost identically from all distances. If you are going to play with draw you have to factor in the distance to the OB and the nature of the cloth.

For playing position, after discarding the possibility of a stop shot the next question is, what happens if I just roll the cue ball? If that doesn't quite work, will adding a little side spin work?

Letting the CB ball roll across to the second rail gives you a 2-foot speed window with a cushion in the middle of it, which makes the window a lot larger.

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Perfectly said! I tell my students I use the following order of operations:

Roll
Roll with spin
Stun
Stun with spin
Draw
Draw with spin

People that say there are many ways to get on the 8 here are correct, but that doesn't mean there isn't a best way. I promise my way is best. I set this up and tried it with a rolling ball with outside and was able to hit between the third diamond and 2" above the 3rd diamond EVERY TIME, with the speed to just bump off the rail EVERY TIME.

This matters. Over many shots and many games this type of consistency leads to less fumbles. And the heck of it is that as you learn to master the easy positional shots, you can then start building entire runs using nothing but more easy positional shots.

Anyone that wants to shoot short side, draw straight back, use low ball, or run multiple rails is making this way too tough. Try rolling the ball. HINT: You need maximum outside english, most people never go past one tip. That won't do. Unfortunately none of my students have ever hit the ball off center as far as I do. They think "Pros stay on the vertical axis". No, they don't. They spin the ball. They just don't mix extreme spin with difficult shots, high speed, and distance. But when you can roll the ball with spin to leave yourself a series of easy shots with low swing speeds, spin away!

This is a very important post because no one else responded with this shot, so everyone here has something to learn. The exception being Bob Jewett who agreed, and he is as good an authority on pool as any man alive.

EDIT: I don't like playing the shot I mentioned with the angle in the diagram. I like playing it with the angle as if you were shooting from the foot spot, only a hair closer. The more full on the ball you get the more the roll of the cue ball wants to bring you through the tangent line. From the angle of the spot you glance off the ball enough you don't sink through the tangent line much so it allows the sidespin to direct you towards the third diamond or beyond slightly.

If you’re just planning on setting up a sharper cut shot and then really spinning it with maximum outside and no outside draw, why not just plan to come up 6 inches short of the opposite side rail? Seems like that would eliminate any possible chance of scratching, even if the cue ball happens to be heading directly at the side pocket. That should still leave you with a relatively easy shot on the eight ball in the side.

optimal speed

ChrisinNC said:

If you’re just planning to really spin it with a maximum outside and no outside draw, why not just plan to come up 6 inches short of the opposite side rail? Seems like that would eliminate any possible chance of scratching, even if the cue ball happens to be heading directly at the side pocket.

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You can't scratch using only outside. 3.5 diamonds is the max.

The benefit of the 2nd rail is that kills all the cue ball speed and you're rebounding on the line fully towards the object ball. If you cut it thin as I'm saying you don't want to risk missing the ball by hitting it too softly or losing cuing accuracy.

Maybe I can figure out how to make a video and upload it. If you saw me land on the same spot 5-10 times in a row I could make some people believers.

Tin Man said:

Perfectly said! I tell my students I use the following order of operations:

Roll
Roll with spin
Stun
Stun with spin
Draw
Draw with spin

People that say there are many ways to get on the 8 here are correct, but that doesn't mean there isn't a best way. I promise my way is best. I set this up and tried it with a rolling ball with outside and was able to hit between the third diamond and 2" above the 3rd diamond EVERY TIME, with the speed to just bump off the rail EVERY TIME.

This matters. Over many shots and many games this type of consistency leads to less fumbles. And the heck of it is that as you learn to master the easy positional shots, you can then start building entire runs using nothing but more easy positional shots.

Anyone that wants to shoot short side, draw straight back, use low ball, or run multiple rails is making this way too tough. Try rolling the ball. HINT: You need maximum outside english, most people never go past one tip. That won't do. Unfortunately none of my students have ever hit the ball off center as far as I do. They think "Pros stay on the vertical axis". No, they don't. They spin the ball. They just don't mix extreme spin with difficult shots, high speed, and distance. But when you can roll the ball with spin to leave yourself a series of easy shots with low swing speeds, spin away!

This is a very important post because no one else responded with this shot, so everyone here has something to learn. The exception being Bob Jewett who agreed, and he is as good an authority on pool as any man alive.

EDIT: I don't like playing the shot I mentioned with the angle in the diagram. I like playing it with the angle as if you were shooting from the foot spot, only a hair closer. The more full on the ball you get the more the roll of the cue ball wants to bring you through the tangent line. From the angle of the spot you glance off the ball enough you don't sink through the tangent line much so it allows the sidespin to direct you towards the third diamond or beyond slightly.

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The simplest way is the best way

Tin Man said:

...I promise my way is best...

...You need maximum outside english...

...This is a very important post.

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Just a hack here, but with ball in hand why would I choose a shot requiring anything near the miscue limit of side?
-It’s not a hard cut, as shown, making squirt and swerve easier to account for?
-The rolling speed required for position makes it easier to use side spin because swerve doesn’t have time to affect the shot; you only have to account for squirt?
-It’s better to play the 8 in the side than the corner?

I like the routine of a checklist, when considering positional routes. I always look at it as, am I playing tangent line or rolling ball. Then consider if any side is necessary coming off the rail. I also always try to play for a corner pocket if given options; maybe I need to rethink that.

Perhaps there is a placement to hit rolling ball without max side that would give you a solid look at the bottom right corner?

good question

VarmintKong said:

Just a hack here, but with ball in hand why would I choose a shot requiring anything near the miscue limit of side?
-It’s not a hard cut, as shown, making squirt and swerve easier to account for?
-The rolling speed required for position makes it easier to use side spin because swerve doesn’t have time to affect the shot; you only have to account for squirt?
-It’s better to play the 8 in the side than the corner?

I like the routine of a checklist, when considering positional routes. I always look at it as, am I playing tangent line or rolling ball. Then consider if any side is necessary coming off the rail. I also always try to play for a corner pocket if given options; maybe I need to rethink that.

Perhaps there is a placement to hit rolling ball without max side that would give you a solid look at the bottom right corner?

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This is a very good question.

Whenever a situation arises where a recommended shot isn't yielding the promised results it usually means one of two things: Either the shot described isn't the best shot, or you need to develop your skills to make it the right shot.

Too many players give up on a shot and deem it unplayable whereas they just need to practice it a bit more and make it a staple in their game. Others try for years to make low percentage shots too much a part of their game.

To this question, I can see that if you miscued regularly on my shot or couldn't strike far enough to get the cue ball to track towards the third diamond then it might not be the right percentage for you today. That said, I can. I would predict that I could bounce lightly off the second rail within 2" of the 3rd diamond 19/20 times (and the 20th time would be a lapse of attention, not a struggle with execution). So, since I can do it and the ability to do it makes it a very core part of my game, I suggest that you work on this skill until you are able to as well.

My game consists of a base of core shots that are very easy to execute and very consistent in terms of cue ball speed and direction. I own these shots and can control them very well. I fanatically avoid playing shape to where I have to go outside of these shots. As a result, I run out most racks without ever having to do anything difficult.

Sidespin is a great tool to move the cue ball around with a rolling cue ball. A rolling cue ball is very consistent as it is always rolling the same (unlike draw which can have differing amounts of back spin). Another major advantage is that you can roll the ball with softer cueing speeds since you aren't fighting table friction. When you use softer speeds you can be more accurate since slight mistakes result in only slight changes to cue ball landing. I believe in rolling the cue ball short distances into big positional targets for angles that yield another rolling ball.

There are plenty of times when you have to hit below center or use speed. But I take that on when the table demands it, not because I think the game is so easy I want to make it tougher. And certainly not because of a lack of planning or respect for the difficulty of the game.

I just recorded a short video with my iphone of me shooting this and playing shape for the 8 ball 14 times. If anyone knows how to link it to this thread please send me a pm with an email address. I can email you the video.

EDIT: I figured it out! I did it! I am learning!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhSx8j01oOo&t=1s

I'd place the cue ball an inch closer to the top right corner pocket, hit cue ball a tad low and right to bring cue ball across table right over the spot to the rail or maybe a little bounce off it to make the eight in the pocket that its closest to.

I am putting the QB a long the right long rail, pocketing the 1 in the right upper corner with forward roll, cue ball hits top short rail comes back down table so I can play the 8 in the bottom right hand pocket. I can also play the 8 in the lower left hand pocket if I miss position real bad or even the sides. There should be no problem clearing the traffic and the QB only has to travel a total of 3 diamonds after OB contact.

Easy out from where the cue ball is in the diagram. Two rails across for the 8 in the side.

ChrisinNC said:

I don’t know if you’re joking, but you would never play that shot in that pocket on a tight pocket table when you have ball-in-hand, when the one ball is less than a foot away from one corner pocket and over 8 feet away from the corner pocket you’re suggesting playing it in. Maybe on a bar table, if you are more comfortable with follow than you are with spinning the cue ball.

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Throw three balls on a table. Six people will run them six different ways.

OP asked, I answered. We all have our comfort level.

9' tables with pro cut pockets? Is there anything else?

https://youtu.be/6T4TbsGCKaA

Thanks

Tin Man said:

I just recorded a short video with my iphone of me shooting this and playing shape for the 8 ball 14 times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhSx8j01oOo&t=1s

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Sup, Tin Man. Thankyou for taking the time to record the video. I finally had some time to set this up this evening after work.

I'm hard headed and you sounded too cocky, so I ran things my way first. I started with a little back cut on the long rail, rolling ball, no side to set up a shot to the bottom right. Speed was pretty consistent, but what I found was the top left object balls left a very slim margin of freedom to allow me to setup the next shot; had to jack up or felt unnatural when placing my bridge hand.

I figured if you were playing for the 3rd diamond I would too. Set up another little back cut on the long rail, rolling ball, touch of run. This was very consistent. I could come within a half-diamond to a ball within the long rail over and over. However, there were two downfalls to this approach.
*If I hit it a little too hard the ball tended to stick to the rail. When I added a touch more to bring it off the rail the shallow angle brought it too far and I ended up with a back cut on the 8.
*I didn't sticker the cue ball position. If I got lazy on the setup, the shot might come dangerously close to a scratch. That was one of the strengths you mentioned your shot possessed.

Grudgingly, I decided to try your shot. At first my setup was bringing me more to the 2nd diamond, but that was cool because I could consistently leave center table for a look at the bottom right. After adjusting, I found the approach you used. Gotta say it was a very natural feeling shot.
*It was a lot more off center than I normally use. I missed left a couple times, but adjusted my aim. Squirt seemed to be the only factor; swerve didn't take effect? Is that a function of the soft shot or the distance to the object ball?
*The ball didn't sit against the rail and finished consistently enough off the rail where I could use any cue tip placement for the next shot. Is this an advantage of a steeper angle into the rail? I really try to make a conscious effort to leave a ball width from the rail when possible.

Thanks for getting me thinking Demetrius. Your way is the best way, but don't get cocky or I'll catch you slippin'.

thank you

VarmintKong said:

Sup, Tin Man. Thankyou for taking the time to record the video. I finally had some time to set this up this evening after work.

I'm hard headed and you sounded too cocky, so I ran things my way first. I started with a little back cut on the long rail, rolling ball, no side to set up a shot to the bottom right. Speed was pretty consistent, but what I found was the top left object balls left a very slim margin of freedom to allow me to setup the next shot; had to jack up or felt unnatural when placing my bridge hand.

I figured if you were playing for the 3rd diamond I would too. Set up another little back cut on the long rail, rolling ball, touch of run. This was very consistent. I could come within a half-diamond to a ball within the long rail over and over. However, there were two downfalls to this approach.
*If I hit it a little too hard the ball tended to stick to the rail. When I added a touch more to bring it off the rail the shallow angle brought it too far and I ended up with a back cut on the 8.
*I didn't sticker the cue ball position. If I got lazy on the setup, the shot might come dangerously close to a scratch. That was one of the strengths you mentioned your shot possessed.

Grudgingly, I decided to try your shot. At first my setup was bringing me more to the 2nd diamond, but that was cool because I could consistently leave center table for a look at the bottom right. After adjusting, I found the approach you used. Gotta say it was a very natural feeling shot.
*It was a lot more off center than I normally use. I missed left a couple times, but adjusted my aim. Squirt seemed to be the only factor; swerve didn't take effect? Is that a function of the soft shot or the distance to the object ball?
*The ball didn't sit against the rail and finished consistently enough off the rail where I could use any cue tip placement for the next shot. Is this an advantage of a steeper angle into the rail? I really try to make a conscious effort to leave a ball width from the rail when possible.

Thanks for getting me thinking Demetrius. Your way is the best way, but don't get cocky or I'll catch you slippin'.

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Thanks for the feedback Varmint. I appreciate you cutting me some slack with coming on a bit strong. I was really hoping to prompt some people into action. I'm glad you played with this shot.

As I said, I disagree that it's easy so it doesn't matter. I fight for every inch and every percentage. That's not the only way to play, but it's the Nick Varner/Ralf Soquet style that has always landed with me. I'm just not talented enough to go Shaw/Filler and run the table over with difficult shots.

The real moral of the story is that some shots are easier than others. As you learn which ones are which not only can you use them when they arise, you can plan to leave those types of shots for yourself more often.

In fact, what if you had a group of core shots that were the easiest to execute while moving the cue ball around, and what if you could master them so well that you could always leave yourself another of those shots? Even in rotation games? That's what I strive to do. 95% of my shots are simple, and if I ever do anything but one of my core shots it's because either I dogged my shape (which happens less often since I'm using easy to control shots) or after the break or my opponent's miss.

I'd love to see more people learn how simple and beautiful this game can be. Sounds like you're well on your way. Again, thanks for trying those shots out. Keep going and I will keep practicing too!

Icon of Sin said:

You have ball in hand on the ball before the 8 and the 8 ball has 5 available pockets... am I missing something here?

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Yea I could not figure out what the issue was with the shot either. You can shoot pretty much anything that won't leave you behind a stripe and win the game, 3-4 "good" ways and probably 40 OK ways.

Icon of Sin said:

You have ball in hand on the ball before the 8 and the 8 ball has 5 available pockets... am I missing something here?

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I was thinking the same.