Relative Humidity

Pre-Flag Master

Cue Ball Man
Silver Member
Lol....I must be getting old before my time. Thanks for pointing it out. I make fun of my dad for repeating the same story over and over again. F..k now it's me...

I think I understand this comment, but I wasn't trying to point anything out.
:)

I think these threads go in subtly different directions sometimes, and I looked at this like they were two different topics. The other thread being about general shaft wood quality, and this one being about stabilizing shaft wood and warpage.

And we're ALL getting old anyways.
:smile-us-down:

So, the question for qbilder still stands.

Fatz
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
qbilder, taking this to it's next logical step - serious here not being a smart arse;

Do you (or have you considered), or would you recommend to other cue makers, taking a square and turning it down to shaft size over a very brief period of time? Just the opposite of babying it! Test the wood. Put it through it's paces. If it remains stable doing this, you can trust that it probably will never warp. If it does warp, you find out early and pitch it. If this is practical, it would save time for the cue maker and get ever more customer satisfaction.

Fatz

I wouldn't recommend anything to other builders, except to keep an open mind & always try to learn, accepting nothing as solid gospel. If I have learned anything at all from cue making, it's that every time I think I have it figured out, something turns me on my head.

As for cutting fast, I do it. I cut away a lot of wood very fast. I slow things down & make thinner cuts as the shaft is coming close to size. I do it for the very reasons you mention, because I get to find out if they are good or not right away rather than over a several year span. Toss the junk & cut my losses. Not every shaft blank can become a good shaft.

The trouble with this is what I think of as tool induced stress. Basically it's push off from the blade, giving an irregular cut because it's flexing the shaft, and it results in what looks like a warp. Even if you go back & thin cut until it's even & straight again, your center line may still be off, and the shaft will move back to it's happy place again in a short period. Knowing the difference between this phenomena & true internal stress movement is not easy, but makes the difference in the yield if you can learn it. I have found it best to make several thinner cuts rather than one thick cut. It's less stress & flex on the wood, and less strain on the machine & blade. You can still take shafts down fast, just not in a single cut. I have been doing this for a few years & am really happy with my results. Yield seems to be pretty much the same as if I take thin cuts over several years. And to be fair, the time it takes to make a shaft from square or dowel is still about the same. Once I hit 15mm, I slow the cuts way down to a thin cut every few months. The "rush" cuts just helps me identify the bad shafts early. I wouldn't recommend it, though. I like doing things my way, as I feel comfortable, and would encourage others to do the same.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Gipson guitar keeps the RH at 50 to 52 and about 54 for new stuff coming in for a while, and thats good enough for me.

Tad Kohara, who is probably the most well-known maker for his shafts staying straight has a simpler formula.
No humidifier or dehumidifier in his shop near Disneyland.
The average humidity here I think hovers around 45-50%.
We get desert dry winds often too which gets the humidity down to 20's .
It's quite eye-opening when humidity gets down to the low 20's.
You can't cut wood during those days. They will warp as you cut.
If you hang shaft on rubber flex hangers, some of them would fall off due to shrinkage.

Imo, getting shafts down to .535-.525 ends and letting them sit for a year or years on varying conditions before final cut prepares them for the real world better.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Imo, getting shafts down to .535-.525 ends and letting them sit for a year or years on varying conditions before final cut prepares them for the real world better.

I agree. And all the cuts before that are trivial & meaningless except for to maybe identify the bad ones for the trash can. I don't seal shafts after cuts, only on the final.
 

jeff olney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wouldn't recommend anything to other builders, except to keep an open mind & always try to learn, accepting nothing as solid gospel. If I have learned anything at all from cue making, it's that every time I think I have it figured out, something turns me on my head.

As for cutting fast, I do it. I cut away a lot of wood very fast. I slow things down & make thinner cuts as the shaft is coming close to size. I do it for the very reasons you mention, because I get to find out if they are good or not right away rather than over a several year span. Toss the junk & cut my losses. Not every shaft blank can become a good shaft.

The trouble with this is what I think of as tool induced stress. Basically it's push off from the blade, giving an irregular cut because it's flexing the shaft, and it results in what looks like a warp. Even if you go back & thin cut until it's even & straight again, your center line may still be off, and the shaft will move back to it's happy place again in a short period. Knowing the difference between this phenomena & true internal stress movement is not easy, but makes the difference in the yield if you can learn it. I have found it best to make several thinner cuts rather than one thick cut. It's less stress & flex on the wood, and less strain on the machine & blade. You can still take shafts down fast, just not in a single cut. I have been doing this for a few years & am really happy with my results. Yield seems to be pretty much the same as if I take thin cuts over several years. And to be fair, the time it takes to make a shaft from square or dowel is still about the same. Once I hit 15mm, I slow the cuts way down to a thin cut every few months. The "rush" cuts just helps me identify the bad shafts early. I wouldn't recommend it, though. I like doing things my way, as I feel comfortable, and would encourage others to do the same.

It takes a long time to make a good shaft, like Eric says take your time and take very small cuts when getting to finished size, i have let shafts set for many years in between cuts those are the best shafts. i like shafts around 3.7 oz. for heavy forearms and heavier shafts for lighter woods so you can have that center balance. Jeff
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I agree. And all the cuts before that are trivial & meaningless except for to maybe identify the bad ones for the trash can. I don't seal shafts after cuts, only on the final.
Kodak moment!
Same here.
I don't believe in coning to .750" ends.
If I did that I wouldn't be able to offset and follow the direction of the dowel as well.
I cone down to .650" end. Some say they get down to .750" first. Good Lord, that is a lot of wood before it gets down to .512. And at .750" end, you can't offset much.
I cone down to .650" end and let it sit while it's in shock.
A lot of wood are gone and a lot of that are grains with no business being there. Often a lot of tight grain group becomes dust while some not so tight ones stay because they are the good guys who follow a line.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Kodak moment!
Same here.
I don't believe in coning to .750" ends.
If I did that I wouldn't be able to offset and follow the direction of the dowel as well.
I cone down to .650" end. Some say they get down to .750" first. Good Lord, that is a lot of wood before it gets down to .512. And at .750" end, you can't offset much.
I cone down to .650" end and let it sit while it's in shock.
A lot of wood are gone and a lot of that are grains with no business being there. Often a lot of tight grain group becomes dust while some not so tight ones stay because they are the good guys who follow a line.

This is where I really get a benefit from cutting my own. I take a quarter sawed board & straight line a mark parallel to the grain, then rip squares. On each square I fine a grain line in the center that follows through to the center of each end, and center drill into that grain line. Subsequently, all the grains run straight end to end. I never change that center. Seems to be working really well, but time will tell. I toss the crazy movers right away & don't even look at them ever again, as if they never existed in the first place.
 

Paul Dayton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I start with an acceptable 1" dowel, find the straight grain line and drill centers. The straight grain line can be found on the quartered faces of the dowel. Make the end with the most offset the ferrule end.
 
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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I start with an acceptable 1" dowel, find the straight grain line and drill centers. The straight grain line can be found on the quartered faces of the dowel. Make the end with the most offset the ferrule end.
Boom, head shot !
I can't do it while they are square.
 

Paul Dayton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Boom, head shot !
I can't do it while they are square.

Sure you can but since it costs about 5 to 10 cents extra for a dowel why would you If you could do 1 square every 30 seconds total time, you'd be saving $6.00 to $12 an hour not counting anything else. One every three minutes, a more likely pace, would be a whole dollar or two an hour saved minus a duller cutting tool and other wear and tear. It doesn't make sense if you can avoid it.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Why not? Why would it be different?

It is to me .
If you look at the face of a rod and mark a grain .325" from the edge on rounds, you get .650" ends.
On squares, the grains could be parralel to the corners not the sides, so .325" from the corner does not get you .650" rounds.
1" rods also allow me to chuck the them up or even on a 1" ID bearing on the steady rest and route the center hole instead of hand drilling them. Using the router to center drill is da nuts.
 

Pre-Flag Master

Cue Ball Man
Silver Member
Anybody know when the lumber industry started using kilns to dry wood?

These old Brunswick cues from the 1920's and so forth, made from kiln dried wood, or air dried?

thanks
 
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qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Anybody know when the lumber industry started using kilns to dry wood?

These old Brunswick cues from the 1920's and so forth, made from kiln dried wood, or air dried?

thanks

I'd guess 60's or 70's hit & miss, and by the 90's everything was being kiln dried. Just guessing. Kilns have existed a long time, almost as long as people have been working with wood. I'm just not sure at what point it became an industry standard.
 

97Buick22

Go Blackhawks!
Silver Member
I agree. And all the cuts before that are trivial & meaningless except for to maybe identify the bad ones for the trash can. I don't seal shafts after cuts, only on the final.

Agreed.... I believe that every cut your making on your shafts is producing and releasing stress in the wood. When I was in the steel business we would use a vibratory stress relieve in lieu of a thermal stress relieve for the thinner plate. It was used after rough grinding the parts and then went to surface grinding it to final size. I'm not saying wood is steel, but there are some similarities in their movement with temperature and stress. It your shafts are moving between cuts when getting colse to size they will likely move in the field.
 

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Hi,

Every time I have marked a shaft with a question mark hoping to cut out a bump it has come back to haunt me later after the decor ring are on.:barf:

When my squares come out of the doweling machine they are not perfectly straight and after I cut out the initial taper at .890 I am like an executioner if they bump after that. The good thing about axing them early is that I can use that wood for ring billet centers.

To me, hoping that a bump will eventually go away is wishful thinking and a waste of my time turning potential bumers. It is like stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.

Rick
 
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