BCA Sandbag Q's??? Mark?? Anybody?
- Thread starter qbilder
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Maybe they shouldn't include a formula for safeties and leave the rules and scorekeeping like they are.
If people are practicing little safe shots during the match in BCA when they could easily get out, I agree
that it could be deemed antagonistic, and annoy the other players, but that's a personal issue and has nothing to do with the BCA rules.
We do that kind of stuff when we are practicing just trying to be funny, but including safeties in the handicap system like the APA, would be a bad idea.
Sandbagging?
Sandbagging is intentionally missing a shot and/or losing a game intentionally to gain an advantage in handicap or to hustle a bet. Playing defense has nothing to do with sandbagging. And besides there is little value in sandbagging in properly run BCA, ACS or VNEA leagues, as opposed to some others.
If by chance you are in Florida, one of my specialties in teaching is 8-ball strategy, and I teach 15 varieties of defensive moves. I've coached defending national champion and state champion teams.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
Sandbagging is intentionally missing a shot and/or losing a game intentionally to gain an advantage in handicap or to hustle a bet. Playing defense has nothing to do with sandbagging. And besides there is little value in sandbagging in properly run BCA, ACS or VNEA leagues, as opposed to some others.
If by chance you are in Florida, one of my specialties in teaching is 8-ball strategy, and I teach 15 varieties of defensive moves. I've coached defending national champion and state champion teams.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
QUOTE=Big Perm;2724190]
.if my opponent is not giving me their best effort, and instead, has decided to purposely play some little game within the game, then I'm going to get pissed off...[/quote]
If you get pissed off over such trivial BS, you're going to end up with an L on the score sheet.
I've thrown a safety at someone when I've had an open table just to unhinge him. It's within the rules, you can call me what ever names you like, in the end I know if you're unhinged I'm going to win not only this rack but the next one as well.
This has nothing to do with sandbagging and everything to do with winning. Yeah it might be a move, but it's a legal move, and it's effective.
It's worth noting, that I'm not going to try this against anybody I know can keep their cool. If you get unhinged by this kinda thing then it's something you have to work on, not complain about others pulling it.
.if my opponent is not giving me their best effort, and instead, has decided to purposely play some little game within the game, then I'm going to get pissed off...[/quote]
If you get pissed off over such trivial BS, you're going to end up with an L on the score sheet.
I've thrown a safety at someone when I've had an open table just to unhinge him. It's within the rules, you can call me what ever names you like, in the end I know if you're unhinged I'm going to win not only this rack but the next one as well.
This has nothing to do with sandbagging and everything to do with winning. Yeah it might be a move, but it's a legal move, and it's effective.
It's worth noting, that I'm not going to try this against anybody I know can keep their cool. If you get unhinged by this kinda thing then it's something you have to work on, not complain about others pulling it.
BCA sandbagging?
Originally Posted by nancewayne
Maybe BCA should include in a formula "Safeties" ?
BCAPL is a sanctioning body - we do not have a standard handicap formula. We have 500 league operators and probably a 100 or more systems in use.
Our National tournaments are scratch (no handicap) but we have different skill divisions for players (ie open, advanced, master etc).
Every local league has their own system for calulating players handicaps.
So - nationally, we do not track safeties or anything else.
We (CSI) does offer a very good national handicap system that has close to a 20 year history with over 70% hill-hill results. This system is called USAPL.
Go to: http://www.playusapool.com - go start a league drop down menu. Or go to 'about the league'.
It is a good system and we have over 20 leagues in operation with a bunch more coming on board.
Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
Originally Posted by nancewayne
Maybe BCA should include in a formula "Safeties" ?
BCAPL is a sanctioning body - we do not have a standard handicap formula. We have 500 league operators and probably a 100 or more systems in use.
Our National tournaments are scratch (no handicap) but we have different skill divisions for players (ie open, advanced, master etc).
Every local league has their own system for calulating players handicaps.
So - nationally, we do not track safeties or anything else.
We (CSI) does offer a very good national handicap system that has close to a 20 year history with over 70% hill-hill results. This system is called USAPL.
Go to: http://www.playusapool.com - go start a league drop down menu. Or go to 'about the league'.
It is a good system and we have over 20 leagues in operation with a bunch more coming on board.
Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
I think that people are imagining your play for something that it isn't. I assume you guys aren't just walking up to the table and playing safe every time you get up. Otherwise, you'd never win, never get out and never back to Vegas.
If however you have decided that the reason you lose to BETTER teams is that you often make poor choices about when to play safe and now your team is simply leaning more towards playing safer and playing a more balanced game, then I'd tell them to shove it.
I'd rather run out starting with bih.
My friends often ask why I played safe on a "makeable" ball. Because my safe was about 95% and the "makeable" ball was about 85%. Which one should I play? I'm much more likely to run out with bih and I'm trying to get out, I'm not just tyring to make this shot. People often think that you should have shot that 85% shot and not considered the safety. Why did he play safe on SUCH a makeable ball.....because now he has bih.
Safeties are underutilized in league player everywhere. People cry about the use of safeties and even consider it a "pussy" move (I'm assuming that's a reference to a very docile kitty). I've heard this exact argument MANY times and I just ignore the morons.
Everybody is playing league to improve their game and or spend time enjoying it. If you aren't purposefully losing or missing balls (a safety isn't a miss) there shouldn't be any problems.
If however you have decided that the reason you lose to BETTER teams is that you often make poor choices about when to play safe and now your team is simply leaning more towards playing safer and playing a more balanced game, then I'd tell them to shove it.
I'd rather run out starting with bih.
My friends often ask why I played safe on a "makeable" ball. Because my safe was about 95% and the "makeable" ball was about 85%. Which one should I play? I'm much more likely to run out with bih and I'm trying to get out, I'm not just tyring to make this shot. People often think that you should have shot that 85% shot and not considered the safety. Why did he play safe on SUCH a makeable ball.....because now he has bih.
Safeties are underutilized in league player everywhere. People cry about the use of safeties and even consider it a "pussy" move (I'm assuming that's a reference to a very docile kitty). I've heard this exact argument MANY times and I just ignore the morons.
Everybody is playing league to improve their game and or spend time enjoying it. If you aren't purposefully losing or missing balls (a safety isn't a miss) there shouldn't be any problems.
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If you get pissed off over such trivial BS, you're going to end up with an L on the score sheet.
I've thrown a safety at someone when I've had an open table just to unhinge him. It's within the rules, you can call me what ever names you like, in the end I know if you're unhinged I'm going to win not only this rack but the next one as well.
This has nothing to do with sandbagging and everything to do with winning. Yeah it might be a move, but it's a legal move, and it's effective.
It's worth noting, that I'm not going to try this against anybody I know can keep their cool. If you get unhinged by this kinda thing then it's something you have to work on, not complain about others pulling it.[/QUOTE]
I agree,if you see this going down an do nothing to stop it other then complaining about it,your in serious trouble.I tell my team mates to get out of their heads an back on the table..but theres been a few times when this has went down an I just shot the eight in,I knew I wasn't going to get a hit,so it was my way saying you win,I'm done screwing around..an I'm not mad,just tried of waitting...those that do this to me are my freinds.well most anyways.
Since when did league night players become run out players? 4,5,6 racks in a row..I've watched master players play a bit..not saying it doesn't happen,even the pro's don't put those numbers up all the time..saftys are part of the game folks..
I agree 100%. BCA, IMO, is about the best & fairest league. My issue was the turmoil caused by other players when some of the "run out" players adopted a new strategy of winning, which focused their skills more on safety play than their usual running out. It frustrated a lot of players who felt that these guys could have just ran out for the win, but instead chose to play a safe (and still won). The purpose was learning to win without running out, having a level of insurance in knowing that they have the skill set to play an effective safe when needed. Against small town local players in the bar leagues, you can take risky chances at running out, miss a shot, and still win the game. In the nationals in Vegas, you cannot. Good run out players are getting beat handily every season in Vegas, simply because they have not developed, nor have been forced to develop, a sound safe game. Those players figured it out pretty quick, and adjusted their strategy. That adjustment pissed off local bar players because they don't understand safe play or practice it or even believe in it. They call it "chicken shit" pool.
Regardless, the issue became personal with a few of the league members and got pretty ugly. Sad to see it happen, but it is what it is. Safety play is part of the game and without it, you are handicapping yourself. Nobody can compete at high level unless they have a good safe game. Nobody runs everything. Seeing players get chastised & accused of sandbagging because they realize this and make the attempt to introduce it in their game strategy, is very disappointing to me.
The way the BCA handled the situation was less than sufficient. I love the BCA, always have, and I know & really like most of the staff, including Mark and Bill. I don't think they disagree with me on my outlook of the situation. But there was no real help from them to resolve it, either. They left the decisions to be made by the local league officials, when the situation had already become very personal & vindictive between they & the players being accused. I understand them not wanting to get involved with local situations. There's no viable resources to do so, anyway. I understand that. But in the lack of help that the players were begging for, they alienated some very loyal, good folks. The local bar players who spend $15 each to play the season remained. The true enthusiasts who pilgrimage to Vegas every May & spend literally thousands each while there, left the league. Sad situation & I hated to see it happen. Even though I understand why BCAPL didn't and 'couldn't' get involved, I still feel things could have been done better, more fairly. I'm certainly not bashing on the BCAPL. I believe they really were concerned about what was happening. It was just a bad situation that ended really bad. The bad guys won. I might include that one of those players was/is a BCA referee, retired military, retired again police officer. He's as honest an fair as any man I have ever known. He is very well aware of the BCA rules & regulations. To accuse him of sandbagging was offensive & foul. He refuses to play league now.
This was EXACTLY the situation. The games were still being won, just included lots of safeties when the opponents expected what they call "honest effort" (trying to run out). The grey area came about with two players. One had to drop his cue and leave the match because his diabetic wife had collapsed & quite literally was dying. Subsequently, his current game and following games for the evening were forfeited. He could have replayed the games, given the opportunity, but he wasn't because the opposing team wanted to keep the average. That effectively dropped his handicap score. The other guy began league ONE WEEK after back surgery & had a body wrap preventing him from bending over, and naturally his ability was inhibited. Scores clearly showed his game improving as he healed. It's in black & white, recorded. These two instances are where the sandbagging accusations emerged. Once the accusation was made, and everybody seen that the entire team had been playing more safeties than expected (again they still won the games), it became a lynch mob. I explained it just as clear as could be in the meetings, and face to face everybody agreed to understand the situation. But by this time the league officials had already been involved in very personal back & forth attacks with these two players, and neither side would let it drop. It escalated into taking it to the BCAPL asking for help resolving the issue, which virtually no help was offered (and I understand why). So what should have been a simple misunderstanding, turned very sour very fast. The players in question feel their integrity & character had been attacked & slandered, and I agree. Several of us who go to the BCAPL annually & spend LOTS of money, simply are not playing the league any longer, did not go to the nationals last year. It sucked because we love going. Some of us began playing in another league and will resume as usual. Others simply just quit. Sad situation.
I was the person that required the back surgery. Prior to my surgery I played when I shouldn't. The only reason was we were short of players and I made up the fifth person. I could NOT bend. I played all my games standing. If I had a rail shot I would play it one handed because I could not place my bridge on the table. I gave up all my breaks. Needless to say I lost most of my games but established a 5 handicap. Folks had a problem with that because I have always shot as a 7/8. After my surgery I did NOT play again until I got the all clear from my doctor. Needless to say I started to return to my normal form.
It was around that time we played one of the top teams. Even with our supposed handicap we JUST barely won each round. In fact their performance absolutely sucked that night. When each game goes more than 4 innings they let us back in with us scoring enough points to win the round. Maybe they were intimidated to be giving up 6 points a round. In fact there was only one round where our score plus handicap came up to MORE than 40 points and they could NEVER win that round. So yes they got beat. Their reasoning was we sandbagged. In fact they lost because they had an off night and actually let us in it.
We played the team that won the league a couple of weeks later and even with all of our sandbagging handicap we got smoked.
Did we play more safeties than normal (or that you might expect)? Yes. We rewarded players on the team for good play and for successful safeties for which they received ball-in-hand. We won games/we lost games, we won rounds/we lost rounds, we won matches/we lost matches. I think out of the 12 teams we finished a respectable 6 or 7 place. Wow so much for sandbagging.
The bottom line is there was a lot more vindictiveness and witch hunt against our team that stemmed from events at the end of the previous season leading into that season. We did NOT violate any BCAPL rules at all. In fact the league operator is the person that violated the BCAPL code of ethics with the witch hunt she ran against our team.
Anyway as a result we did NOT go to Vegas last year as Eric mentioned. So for one of the posters to say we took a top teams trip to Vegas was wrong. That team we beat actually did go to Vegas.
We are no longer playing in that league even though it is almost the only BCAPL league in town. I am just fortunate that there is one other smaller BCAPL sanctioned league in the town I am playing on so I have the ability to play at nationals this next year.
So them's the facts........ and the last I will ever mention that period on these forums!!!!!!!!!
It was around that time we played one of the top teams. Even with our supposed handicap we JUST barely won each round. In fact their performance absolutely sucked that night. When each game goes more than 4 innings they let us back in with us scoring enough points to win the round. Maybe they were intimidated to be giving up 6 points a round. In fact there was only one round where our score plus handicap came up to MORE than 40 points and they could NEVER win that round. So yes they got beat. Their reasoning was we sandbagged. In fact they lost because they had an off night and actually let us in it.
We played the team that won the league a couple of weeks later and even with all of our sandbagging handicap we got smoked.
Did we play more safeties than normal (or that you might expect)? Yes. We rewarded players on the team for good play and for successful safeties for which they received ball-in-hand. We won games/we lost games, we won rounds/we lost rounds, we won matches/we lost matches. I think out of the 12 teams we finished a respectable 6 or 7 place. Wow so much for sandbagging.
The bottom line is there was a lot more vindictiveness and witch hunt against our team that stemmed from events at the end of the previous season leading into that season. We did NOT violate any BCAPL rules at all. In fact the league operator is the person that violated the BCAPL code of ethics with the witch hunt she ran against our team.
Anyway as a result we did NOT go to Vegas last year as Eric mentioned. So for one of the posters to say we took a top teams trip to Vegas was wrong. That team we beat actually did go to Vegas.
We are no longer playing in that league even though it is almost the only BCAPL league in town. I am just fortunate that there is one other smaller BCAPL sanctioned league in the town I am playing on so I have the ability to play at nationals this next year.
So them's the facts........ and the last I will ever mention that period on these forums!!!!!!!!!
unnecessary safeties
I understand where you're coming from. Back in the '80s, there was a fella on one of my teams who would have ball in hand with an easy out, but would play safety just for practice AND to piss off his opponent. That was when we still played three foul loss in 8-ball (VNEA). He even did this at the nationals! That team did win the national title, which was great, but made a few enemies in the process.
I understand where you're coming from. Back in the '80s, there was a fella on one of my teams who would have ball in hand with an easy out, but would play safety just for practice AND to piss off his opponent. That was when we still played three foul loss in 8-ball (VNEA). He even did this at the nationals! That team did win the national title, which was great, but made a few enemies in the process.