That would change everything if there was actually a motive, an incentive. But there isn't. And the fact that I have only played once & my teammates are not that strong kinda lends belief that there's more to it than is being said. My team won the last 3 years straight so we broke it up & formed new, weaker teams this season. And not everybody is annoyed. It's only one officer & her friends.
BCA Sandbag Q's??? Mark?? Anybody?
- Thread starter qbilder
- Start date
That would change everything if there was actually a motive, an incentive. But there isn't. And the fact that I have only played once & my teammates are not that strong kinda lends belief that there's more to it than is being said. My team won the last 3 years straight so we broke it up & formed new, weaker teams this season. And not everybody is annoyed. It's only one officer & her friends.
Lance Link
Banned
I want to improve my game as well, but if I'm in deadstroke, A) I'll win more games running out, and B) my safeties (when necessary) WILL be effective.
A few years ago, I was on a five-man team and after four weeks we were in first place. We always try to have six players on our team (somebody has to work, babysit, etc., or someone's shooting bad). We found a fellow league player at a tournament, and he was interested. He also told us we needed to play more safeties (?????) We found another player instead. Never regretted it.
If a safety is the better choice that will get me to a win, I'll play safe. If the opportunity to run out is there, I'm takin' it.
Play to win. That's where I come out.
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Have you thought what may be happening is that by playing so many safties your team is dragging out/prolonging the matches and the other teams in the league are looking for anything to get your team booted out?
If your team is still winning the same amount of matches by playing safe as playing aggressive, your handicaps should not be affected, unless your handicaping system takes into account the number of innings you have at the table. In which case, there should be some accomodation for safety play.
I play both BCA and VNEA and groan when we play a team that has a lot of slow players and it takes a long time to get through the match. Personally, I think the best way for your team to learn safety play is to pick up one-pocket. Instead of "practicing" your safety play in a league environment get your team together and have your own round robin one hole event for small stakes.
If your team is still winning the same amount of matches by playing safe as playing aggressive, your handicaps should not be affected, unless your handicaping system takes into account the number of innings you have at the table. In which case, there should be some accomodation for safety play.
I play both BCA and VNEA and groan when we play a team that has a lot of slow players and it takes a long time to get through the match. Personally, I think the best way for your team to learn safety play is to pick up one-pocket. Instead of "practicing" your safety play in a league environment get your team together and have your own round robin one hole event for small stakes.
I am hesitantly going to respond to this post one time only. It is inappropriate to air your concerns in a public forum without picking up the phone and calling our national office first. Our number is 702-719-7665.
Yes, I spoke with the league operator yesterday in regards to this issue. She stated that there would be a meeting last night and apparently there was. She told me that nothing was done at the time and your team was told that they would wait to see how the next week or two went at league. I said that it would be a good idea for the meeting with team captains to discuss the sutuation.
I did not advise the league to kick you out. I said that it would be one of the options with the other being issuing higher handicaps to you and your players. It was also stated to me that the safety issue was getting so riduculous that you would have a straight in 8-ball to win the game and you would play a safety instead. That is not right in my opinion. The bottom line is that your style of play in upsetting the entire league. You may not feel that it effects handicaps but it does for you and the opponents.
I do have an observation. You state that you run 4-5-6 packs regularly and you can't play a safety. Hard to believe.
Again, this is my only post. If you would like to discuss this further give me a call.
Bill Stock
CueSports International
BCA Pool League
Director of Referees
Rules Administrator
I think I am going to practice banks or kick shots my next match at leagues.
If I did, I would expect people to be mad. Like Big Perm said earlier, I would probably look at myself as a douchebag if I did something like that. A lot of league players are going to complain no matter what. However, by 'practicing' during a match and not running out when you could, I can see what kind of fuss they must have put up. They might be pissy when you run out on them all the time, but that blows over, and they know you are a good player and respect that. If you are 'practicing' against them, they probably feel like you are messing around or f'ing with them. These players may have been gunning to beat you, and it would have made their night if they did. Do you think they feel the same accomplishment now when they win? I highly doubt it, since they know you are not trying to run out, and are practicing against them. Most people just want a night out to play pool, drink, etc. I can see how the majority of people would look at you as a douchebag...no matter if you paid the same amount as them, or if you won or lost. Like a few others have said, 'don't be THAT guy'.
If I did, I would expect people to be mad. Like Big Perm said earlier, I would probably look at myself as a douchebag if I did something like that. A lot of league players are going to complain no matter what. However, by 'practicing' during a match and not running out when you could, I can see what kind of fuss they must have put up. They might be pissy when you run out on them all the time, but that blows over, and they know you are a good player and respect that. If you are 'practicing' against them, they probably feel like you are messing around or f'ing with them. These players may have been gunning to beat you, and it would have made their night if they did. Do you think they feel the same accomplishment now when they win? I highly doubt it, since they know you are not trying to run out, and are practicing against them. Most people just want a night out to play pool, drink, etc. I can see how the majority of people would look at you as a douchebag...no matter if you paid the same amount as them, or if you won or lost. Like a few others have said, 'don't be THAT guy'.
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Playing a safety on an open table is a ligitimate move. Sometimes it's not that you win that is important, it's how you win. If I beat you by playing safeties and getting into your head it can shake your confidence. It makes you that much easier to beat by the guy on my team that has to play you next.
If you want to call me a douche bag (are we even allowed to say that on the forum?) because of it, fine, I still beat you and you're a sore loser.
Again, it's just my opinion.....it is your choice and you may do as you like....but realize that in doing so, you might make a few enemies and lose some respect along the way.....and ultimately, that is also your choice.....your forum name tends to make me think you make cues, and with that being said, you might alienate a few potential customers.....as a businessman, IMHO, that is something to think about....
Remember, just because something is within the rules doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.....in some states (likely Arkansas, LOL), I'm guessing you can legally have sex with your sister, but that don't make it right :grin:
BCA Sandbagging because you play safety shots ?
The APA scoring for handicap purposes COUNTS "safety shots" as skill shots which makes your handicap show higher (better player). Maybe BCA should include in a formula "Safeties" ?
The APA scoring for handicap purposes COUNTS "safety shots" as skill shots which makes your handicap show higher (better player). Maybe BCA should include in a formula "Safeties" ?
Yes, I would agree that it's not that you win, but how you win.....with class, integrity, and honor while playing to the best of your ability.......the few games I win, LOL, I win with smart play and with my best....I don't "move" against players....
I said that if he did that to me and we were in the same league I would think he was a douchebag.....if he's offended, I will offer a sincere public apology to qbuilder.....
Eric, you need to talk with Bill Stock. Call our office at (702) 719-7665. He is who took the initial phone call. This reminds me of that old kids game "operator" where what one person said got filtered through other folks to the point that the "facts" may not be recognizable anymore...
I bet we can all relate to that issue taking place in life and in more than pool too.
Peace everyone and Happy Thanksgiving!
I bet we can all relate to that issue taking place in life and in more than pool too. Peace everyone and Happy Thanksgiving!
From my understanding the bca has no set handicapping system like the apa. Every bca league can make up there own if they wish to use them. I've been to a few reno barbox events and ill tell you what there are alot of safes being played early in a rack if the runout isn't easy. From what i've learned thats how you win. If the racks open run it out, If there is something tied up play to a good safe and fast.
Defence does drag out games though. In our local bca league there is a gentleman that starts complaining if the night runs past 9pm. The funny thing is the gentlemans wife was the treasurer of the league in the next town 3 years ago. During our summer 9 ball the money went missing, around 4k worth (there were 2 names on the bank account the league pres and the treasurer). To this day all that has happened was the bca stops them from entering regional and national events.
As far as your team i would guess they are newer (being c players)and dont know when to play safe and this is why any of this has happened. I would brush it off as this will all blow over soon.
Defence does drag out games though. In our local bca league there is a gentleman that starts complaining if the night runs past 9pm. The funny thing is the gentlemans wife was the treasurer of the league in the next town 3 years ago. During our summer 9 ball the money went missing, around 4k worth (there were 2 names on the bank account the league pres and the treasurer). To this day all that has happened was the bca stops them from entering regional and national events.
As far as your team i would guess they are newer (being c players)and dont know when to play safe and this is why any of this has happened. I would brush it off as this will all blow over soon.
Lance Link
Banned
Something like this, Holly ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFII-edH-Yo
Peace everyone and Happy Thanksgiving
Eric, you need to talk with Bill Stock. Call our office at (702) 719-7665. He is who took the initial phone call. This reminds me of that old kids game "operator" where what one person said got filtered through other folks to the point that the "facts" may not be recognizable anymore...
Peace everyone and Happy Thanksgiving!
I'll call. My apology for venting.
And Perm, no worries buddy. I'm not so easy to offend.
Safeties
Sounds like we have people who do not like defensive players. Other than golf, name some sports that have no defense in them. I know pool is not a sport because you can drink beer while playing. If we play tennis am I supposed to hit the ball right back at you!! If you refuse to play safe with me I will hand you your head in a basket! Safeties slow down run out players and break their momentum. Playing run out is the pure way to play,but as time marches on we sometimes lose some of that in our game. I want to run every rack and will in a heartbeat, but have a strong saftey game to bail me out. And yes, I hope my safe play irritates you cause now I am in your head. In leagues that reward every ball made I will make balls till there are no good shots left and duck out with defense. Can not wait to me some of you run out players at the big dance in Vegas!
Sounds like we have people who do not like defensive players. Other than golf, name some sports that have no defense in them. I know pool is not a sport because you can drink beer while playing. If we play tennis am I supposed to hit the ball right back at you!! If you refuse to play safe with me I will hand you your head in a basket! Safeties slow down run out players and break their momentum. Playing run out is the pure way to play,but as time marches on we sometimes lose some of that in our game. I want to run every rack and will in a heartbeat, but have a strong saftey game to bail me out. And yes, I hope my safe play irritates you cause now I am in your head. In leagues that reward every ball made I will make balls till there are no good shots left and duck out with defense. Can not wait to me some of you run out players at the big dance in Vegas!
This will be my ONLY post on this subject. I was at the league meeting last night. I am the captain of the team that has been accused of Sandbagging. I am also the person that had the back surgery in mid-October that I am recovering from.
Our league does use the 8-point system and bases your average on that. Normally I am a 7 to 8 HDCP in the league. Due to my recovery after the surgery, I am currently shooting as a 4. Next time if I have a perfect night after 5 weeks of play I should be a 5. I have enough problems standing never mind bending over the table at this time. I am giving up all my breaks so far because I don't want to risk things until I more fully recover. I probably shouldn't be playing but I love this game too much.
My team has been accused of playing too many safeties during a match. My thoughts are that you play a safety to win OR improve your position leading to the win depending on the situation or table layout.
Watching the Masters play in Vegas I noticed they will not go for the runout UNLESS it is pretty much guaranteed. Since I already know how to win my focus has been to play even smarter (leading up to the Nationals). I look at my performance versus considering my opponent's performance. I want to better emulate what I've seen at the Master level.
To compound things this year, my team are pretty much a bunch of cripples (as Eric states). Unfortunately this does NOT seem to be considered or is being disregarded because we are NORMALLY 6's or 7's. So since I am a current 4 I'm accused of Sandbagging.
All of this was covered and explained at the captain's meeting last night.
Actual payouts at the end of the season are based on a players actual ball count. So regardless if I am 2 or 8 I will only get paid for my performance as does everyone else. Please explain how my HDCP gives me an advantage over another player as far as monies go. If he wins the game NOT including HDCP he gets 8 points the same as I would. If a point is worth 10 cents he gets 80 cents. HDCP is NOT a factor for the monies or payouts of any kind.
What I find funny is teams are not complaining when they beat us but IF we win we must be Sandbagging. Guess what if our team beats your team scratch without HDCP then we beat you. Now if our HDCP difference was such a disparity that we managed to lose all games but still won every round then this is because of the HDCP. The worst I've seen has been we won 4 games in a round and still lost the round because the 5th opponent got a break and run. Those folks are awfully happy at that point but reverse the situation and now it's a problem as we have previously maintained. I guess the real problem is a win doesn't really mean anything.
Final FYI.... my team is currently in last place after 9 weeks and we are legitimately getting beat. I would think if we planned to Sandbag it would be to actually win the league. If not then what the heck is the purpose of Sandbagging. Out of 12 teams we might be lucky to finish in 6 or 7 place at the end of the season. Regardless of where the team finishes we get nothing extra.
On a side note our league does pay 1 team entry to Vegas for every 5 teams. This is offered to the top 2 teams in league standings. If a team can't go this is offered to the next team, and so forth. I will concede this is something we could possibly affect when we play those teams vying for those positions. However it is something that our team can NOT mathematically reach at this stage during the season.
If it seems I'm venting it is because of erroneously being accused of Sandbagging both as a player and a team.
Just wanted to clear the air......
FYI.... I might try giving Bill or Glenna Stock a call later after I sleep further on this.
Our league does use the 8-point system and bases your average on that. Normally I am a 7 to 8 HDCP in the league. Due to my recovery after the surgery, I am currently shooting as a 4. Next time if I have a perfect night after 5 weeks of play I should be a 5. I have enough problems standing never mind bending over the table at this time. I am giving up all my breaks so far because I don't want to risk things until I more fully recover. I probably shouldn't be playing but I love this game too much.
My team has been accused of playing too many safeties during a match. My thoughts are that you play a safety to win OR improve your position leading to the win depending on the situation or table layout.
Watching the Masters play in Vegas I noticed they will not go for the runout UNLESS it is pretty much guaranteed. Since I already know how to win my focus has been to play even smarter (leading up to the Nationals). I look at my performance versus considering my opponent's performance. I want to better emulate what I've seen at the Master level.
To compound things this year, my team are pretty much a bunch of cripples (as Eric states). Unfortunately this does NOT seem to be considered or is being disregarded because we are NORMALLY 6's or 7's. So since I am a current 4 I'm accused of Sandbagging.
All of this was covered and explained at the captain's meeting last night.
Actual payouts at the end of the season are based on a players actual ball count. So regardless if I am 2 or 8 I will only get paid for my performance as does everyone else. Please explain how my HDCP gives me an advantage over another player as far as monies go. If he wins the game NOT including HDCP he gets 8 points the same as I would. If a point is worth 10 cents he gets 80 cents. HDCP is NOT a factor for the monies or payouts of any kind.
What I find funny is teams are not complaining when they beat us but IF we win we must be Sandbagging. Guess what if our team beats your team scratch without HDCP then we beat you. Now if our HDCP difference was such a disparity that we managed to lose all games but still won every round then this is because of the HDCP. The worst I've seen has been we won 4 games in a round and still lost the round because the 5th opponent got a break and run. Those folks are awfully happy at that point but reverse the situation and now it's a problem as we have previously maintained. I guess the real problem is a win doesn't really mean anything.
Final FYI.... my team is currently in last place after 9 weeks and we are legitimately getting beat. I would think if we planned to Sandbag it would be to actually win the league. If not then what the heck is the purpose of Sandbagging. Out of 12 teams we might be lucky to finish in 6 or 7 place at the end of the season. Regardless of where the team finishes we get nothing extra.
On a side note our league does pay 1 team entry to Vegas for every 5 teams. This is offered to the top 2 teams in league standings. If a team can't go this is offered to the next team, and so forth. I will concede this is something we could possibly affect when we play those teams vying for those positions. However it is something that our team can NOT mathematically reach at this stage during the season.
If it seems I'm venting it is because of erroneously being accused of Sandbagging both as a player and a team.
Just wanted to clear the air......
FYI.... I might try giving Bill or Glenna Stock a call later after I sleep further on this.
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You do not have to call safeties unless you pocket your ball on a legal shot with intentions of playing a safety.
It's more of a gentlemans rule to call safes on shots where it might not be obvious before you shoot on your intentions, a close hit, a speed shot to see if a rail was contacted, etc. This could give your opponent the opportunity to call over a ref before the shot.
HMmm
The MAIN reason why to call safeties is so your opponent does not interrupt you during your shot asking "what pocket" etc.... if you call a safety, he knows what you are doing and will not bother you. Also, in case your are actually going to make the ball, and you DON'T want to shoot again, leaving your opponenet tough....
The MAIN reason why to call safeties is so your opponent does not interrupt you during your shot asking "what pocket" etc.... if you call a safety, he knows what you are doing and will not bother you. Also, in case your are actually going to make the ball, and you DON'T want to shoot again, leaving your opponenet tough....
Really? I think it is the numerous safties that were played when the player could have easily run out. Eric made it seem like he was practicing safes during his matches. I wouldn't care if he played 50 safes a game, but you cannot say you are suprised that some league players are upset about it. I think the issue is the unessessary amount of safes being played, not the fact that people do not like defensive players. I would guess that some of the players find it disrespectful that someone is using a match with them for practice. Like I said, I could care less, but I can see how some league players would flip out. I have seen people have problems with things much less then this during leagues.
Who knows if it is true, but someone mentioned about a player playing a safe when they were straight in on the 8. This seems a little over the top.