when you draw, where should the cb contact the tip?

Still depends on other things like cloth, humidity, stick vector/linearity, distance to object ball, drag coefficient of your shaft/bridge system etc...

On new cloth, a tap (seriously) just below the center line should be ample.

Trying to hit too low.

Bob Jewett said:

I'm certain that is covered in detail on Dr. Dave's site, but here is a very old rule of thumb:
Use a stripe as your cue ball. Place the stripe so it is horizontal (like a belt around the ball). As long as you hit in the color, you should not miscue. You can tell where you hit after the fact by looking for the chalk mark on the ball. To make that less ambiguous, clean the ball before each try.

(This is true for balls that have a stripe 1 1/8 inch tall. Some designs have a wider stripe. You will probably miscue right at the edge of those stripes.)

As has been pointed out in a recent thread, for power draw over a long distance, it is actually better not to hit all the way down, just most of the way down on the stripe. Experiment. The reasons for that are also covered on Dr. Dave's site.

I suspect your problem stems from not hitting on the ball where you address it. "The chalk mark is the teacher.":grin:

Click to expand...

I'd also add level cue & follow through. Jacking up doesn't help a draw shot.

great post.
i have been miscueing a lot recently when doing draw shots. Never had this problem when i have the new tip installed a few months ago.

I noticed that the tip shape has mushroomed since. Does mushroomed tip cause miscues?

pwd72s said:

I'd also add level cue & follow through. Jacking up doesn't help a draw shot.

Click to expand...

Actually it can and most draw shots have to be made with a given amount of incline. Your bridge probably can't get low enough for one. Add the rail behind you and the only way to hit low is to pivot downward. The reason this works is shooting down gives you all the off center spin with less forward momentum than when shooting level. Add the slight jump effect and you have a cueball with unhindered backspin touching down only after it hits the object ball.
The reason this doesn't work for many is stroke issues - like anticipating a miscue, flinching into a high hit, and shooting a stop shot.
Draw shots don't take a lot of force. They do require a refined stroke.

Bob Jewett said:

What do you mean by "refined stroke"?

Click to expand...

accurate delivery

measured speed/touch

You do have to hit draw shots with authority. You can bang 'em out and bring the ball back; sure but the idea is control right?

evergruven said:

...the miscue almost always ends up being on the outer edge of the tip

Click to expand...

If you mean there’s a “bald spot” on the bottom edge of the tip, that’s from hitting too low (more than halfway from center to edge of the CB), and the tip hitting the cloth.

pj
chgo

straightline said:

...shooting down gives you all the off center spin with less forward momentum than when shooting level. Add the slight jump effect and you have a cueball with unhindered backspin touching down only after it hits the object ball.

Click to expand...

Backspin is “hindered” with an elevated cue by the extra friction of the CB being driven downward into the cloth and bouncing on its way to the OB. You can get the CB to draw back more steeply that way, but I don’t think you get more draw.

pj
chgo

If your tip is properly roughed, it's a lot easier to avoid miscues. When my tip gets too hard or slick, I've been using the Tip Pik. I press it in and roll it (get the full crowned surface) and it helps a lot. Seems to be more effective than scruffing for me. From what I've seen, many players do not hit low enough on the cue ball, so they try to slam a draw shot, and that makes for more misses and miscues. Try roughing up the tip, go really low but with a smooth, steady delivery. Let us know if your results improve.


https://www.pooldawg.com/tip-pik-tip-tool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4EHRkmXJ74

Patrick Johnson said:

Backspin is “hindered” with an elevated cue by the extra friction of the CB being driven downward into the cloth and bouncing on its way to the OB. You can get the CB to draw back more steeply that way, but I don’t think you get more draw.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

No it isn't. I'm sure you've come across the demonstration where you place a dime in the center of a 9 footer and from the headstring you shoot directly at the coin. With a medium and normal center ball stroke, the cue ball will sail right over the dime. It doesn't take a lot of elevation to get the ball airborne. Nope.
I'm also reminded of when I was a noob noob - not the veteran noob I am now, I came across the green Willie Hoppe book. In devouring it I came to the chapter on draw shots and of course it says "level stroke". I'm like, "I nu dat" but when I look at the picture he's shooting down on the ball at 5 or 10 degrees. Major WTF moment to say the least. Check out Tony Chohan's "level stroke" for a current example.
Anyway, like I said it's quite a feat to level your stroke in the first place. Even on a big table where you can stroke the whole cue out on the playing surface, you gotta get fingers under the cue somehow. As of this post, I'm calling that front and back hand elevation. FHE, BHE lol Which incidentally nobody refers to as jacked up even though the stroke incline is the same.

Oh and as to that moment when the cuetip , mashes the ball into the cloth, it can amplify the effect of the vertical spin by holding the ball in place to get smacked. Works very well on follow shots too where there isn't the distance for the ball to hookup.

Bob Jewett said:

As has been pointed out in a recent thread, for power draw over a long distance, it is actually better not to hit all the way down, just most of the way down on the stripe. Experiment. The reasons for that are also covered on Dr. Dave's site.

I suspect your problem stems from not hitting on the ball where you address it. "The chalk mark is the teacher.":grin:

Click to expand...

i searched dr daves site and could not find the explanation for this
why not as low as possible without miscue?

evergruven said:

this is gonna sound nuts, and I could sure be mistaken
but after reading this thread and thinking about it
I think I might be miscueing because I'm getting *too* level/low on the cb
will test and report back
thanks all for the replies-

Click to expand...

Try cueing center ball and simply raise your back hand - wait, use a 12" bridge minimum and then do the first part. Hit just below the center line and go from there.

old timers level stroke vs todays

The old timers, some still around today, didn't mean the same thing when they said level stroke as the stroke we strive for. I took level stroke to extremes, burned knuckle extremes, then I started looking at the books. When you look at the shot demonstrations when they are not specifically demonstrating the level stroke you see that the buttcap of the cue is three to five inches above the tip! This is true even when there is no obstruction, other balls or rail, causing this elevation. Nope, when they said level they didn't take that to extremes.

The old folks ain't the only ones misleading us, today's instructors aren't doing what they teach either when you pay careful attention to their shooting. How many instructors hit the cue ball with the forearm ninety degrees to the cue or table? How many pro's do? The vast majority of both hit the cue ball "late" in the stroke. They are already ahead of that magic ninety degrees addressing the cue ball, how can they not be past it hitting the cue ball? Add some wrist action and the fingers have to get busy or the shoulder has to drop, maybe a bit of both.

I have done more harm to my game chasing dogma than any perceived flaws ever caused!

Hu

Edit: To help the draw shot, put another ball four inches in front of the cue ball for a practice drill. Try to hit that ball when you shoot instead of the cue ball. When we are fighting to draw the cue ball we often start botching the follow-through which is what makes those effortless draw shots we see some players have.

straightline said:

No it isn't. I'm sure you've come across the demonstration where you place a dime in the center of a 9 footer and from the headstring you shoot directly at the coin. With a medium and normal center ball stroke, the cue ball will sail right over the dime. It doesn't take a lot of elevation to get the ball airborne. Nope.
I'm also reminded of when I was a noob noob - not the veteran noob I am now, I came across the green Willie Hoppe book. In devouring it I came to the chapter on draw shots and of course it says "level stroke". I'm like, "I nu dat" but when I look at the picture he's shooting down on the ball at 5 or 10 degrees. Major WTF moment to say the least. Check out Tony Chohan's "level stroke" for a current example.
Anyway, like I said it's quite a feat to level your stroke in the first place. Even on a big table where you can stroke the whole cue out on the playing surface, you gotta get fingers under the cue somehow. As of this post, I'm calling that front and back hand elevation. FHE, BHE lol Which incidentally nobody refers to as jacked up even though the stroke incline is the same.

Oh and as to that moment when the cuetip , mashes the ball into the cloth, it can amplify the effect of the vertical spin by holding the ball in place to get smacked. Works very well on follow shots too where there isn't the distance for the ball to hookup.

Click to expand...

Patrick Johnson said:

Backspin is “hindered” with an elevated cue by the extra friction of the CB being driven downward into the cloth and bouncing on its way to the OB. You can get the CB to draw back more steeply that way, but I don’t think you get more draw.

Click to expand...

straightline said:

No it isn't.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is.

“Elevating the cue reduces the amount of CB spin at OB contact, resulting in less draw distance.”

- Dr. Dave’s Draw Shot Physics-Based Advice

pj
chgo

bbb said:

i searched dr daves site and could not find the explanation for this why not as low as possible without miscue?

Click to expand...

“More tip offset does not produce significantly more draw as you approach the miscue limit; so, generally, it is advisable to not hit too close to the miscue limit.”

- Dr. Dave’s Draw Shot Physics-Based Advice

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

Yes, it is.

“Elevating the cue reduces the amount of CB spin at OB contact, resulting in less draw distance.”

- Dr. Dave’s Draw Shot Physics-Based Advice

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

Go watch draw shot demos. Without even checking I'd say they all require an inclined cue. Then there's the hyper draw stuff where you simply can't hit with enough speed without the bed of the table bracing the ball. Gotta stand on that.