Governing body of pool table mechanics

OTLB

Banned
Well now, this is a nice topic for the forum. Let the debate begin. I already know if someone saw me doing my tack strips they would tell me to get the ^&*( out. I do know how to qualify and eliminate hacks but sadly my posts many times just go unanswered. I am guilty of not always explaining myself because I like to hear what others think with more open ended questions.

First I would think there would be a std for every operation. How level is your table? and on and on.

Lets make a list and then think about it?
 

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
As long as there isn't going to be any regular shots for those std's you mentioned, I'm game.....
Come to think of it, I could do with out the STD to begin with.
Can I just work on the table?lol
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
OTLB said:
Well now, this is a nice topic for the forum. Let the debate begin. I already know if someone saw me doing my tack strips they would tell me to get the ^&*( out. I do know how to qualify and eliminate hacks but sadly my posts many times just go unanswered. I am guilty of not always explaining myself because I like to hear what others think with more open ended questions.

First I would think there would be a std for every operation. How level is your table? and on and on.

Lets make a list and then think about it?
John, when I'm back east I'll make it a point to stop by and spend some time with you, I think you'll change your mind about them tack strips then:p

Glen
 

OTLB

Banned
I am sorry but my R+D department is off limits, I am the only one dumping in it. Tac strips are not perfected yet but I am working on the corners. The funny thing is, I am doing this only because I want to see if I can.
 

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QuickEdward

New member
Silver Member
Well, first of all "governing body" really is misleading. Of course you can't govern what retailers and independent mechanics actually do whether they are members of your group or not.

Really what we're talking about is simply a certification to insure that mechanics are trained in the "best practices".

For the purposes of this thread, let's say that our organization is called "Billiard Table Mechanics Association".

As with most endeavors, the first hurdle is money. Where does it come from? I can see this association being funded through three sources - manufacturers, retailers, and mechanics themselves.

In my perfect world there would be two three-man teams of instructors traveling the country - one west of the Mississippi and one east. Retailers would pay a fee of let's say $100 per employee to be certified. Independent table mechanics would pay $200 each for certification. Independent mechanics would first have to prove that they have a business license and insurance before being certified.

Retailers and independent mechanics would then be able to use a logo and the title "BTMA Certified Billiard Technician" - similar to ASE certified mechanics, etc.

After spending hours upon hours over the last week reading almost every thread in this forum, I would urge anyone interested in undertaking this endeavor to avoid getting bogged down with promoting the "one right way" to perform specific tasks - leveling, stretching cloth, etc.

I have read hundreds of posts from Real King Cobra, OTLB and others in this forum. No two of you do everything the same as another. Let's face it, the problem isn't wax vs. bondo vs. Durham's. The problem is mechanics that can't properly set up a table using ANY of those three methods. Instruction and certification will have to be as much about what NOT to do as what you SHOULD do.
 

Mantool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OTLB said:
I am sorry but my R+D department is off limits, I am the only one dumping in it. Tac strips are not perfected yet but I am working on the corners. The funny thing is, I am doing this only because I want to see if I can.
Welcome back!!!! It's nice to have you posting again. I enjoy your creative approach and outside of the box thinking.

"I am doing this only because I want to see if I can."
= Nice

Keep posting John!
 

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
Chapters 1-8 of my new novel.....lol

QuickEdward said:
Well, first of all "governing body" really is misleading. Of course you can't govern what retailers and independent mechanics actually do whether they are members of your group or not.
Maybe not, but there can be a standard set that others with any pride would like to attain. Bad practices makes for bad business.

Really what we're talking about is simply a certification to insure that mechanics are trained in the "best practices".
It's like the tightening of pockets, discussion.... how many facings do you want to stack up to avoid extending the subrail. Do you want employees that are capable of subrail extention, or guys that can glue another piece of rubber over another one and call it good enough for a 4" pocket? As a consumer/player being charged about $150 which would you rather be paying for?

For the purposes of this thread, let's say that our organization is called "Billiard Table Mechanics Association".

As with most endeavors, the first hurdle is money. Where does it come from? I can see this association being funded through three sources - manufacturers, retailers, and mechanics themselves.

If the school is backed by manufacturers and retailers, then maintained and trained by well rounded mechanics, then that hurdle is already crossed, so the next step would be affordability and the time required for those that want to be trained and certified. There's no way that you could take someone, teach them the bare basics of working on a table, and call them a mechanic. They are now an assembler. there are thousands of them out there. They can take a table out of a box , slap it together with a carpenters level and leave. They may or may not be able to cover a rail with Championship or Forstmann's, but not even close to ready for Simonis. They probably don't even play pool so don't know what the difference is anyway. An installer may have what it takes to do the job, but doesn't really know that there are other ways to get it done until introduced to it. They can do some repairs/touchups, recover rails, disassemble a table and probably figure out many other tables that they have not seen before. Could they move and setup and antique or a Diamond? Most don't want to try. Not for what they are getting paid to do.

In my perfect world there would be two three-man teams of instructors traveling the country - one west of the Mississippi and one east. Retailers would pay a fee of let's say $100 per employee to be certified. Independent table mechanics would pay $200 each for certification. Independent mechanics would first have to prove that they have a business license and insurance before being certified.
But what is the time frame for quality control purposes to get this training/certification done in? There are guys that have been doing it for say a year, that still are barely an assembler. They have no ambition to become better, don't feel the need to learn, so are they also qualified to have the same certifications as someone that can strip down restore/repair an obsolete table, repair broken slate, change out rail rubber with the correct profile for the correct table, fabricate parts to complete a job, or even tighten pockets beyond 3/8"?
Not real fair to the guys that have spent decades learning the trade and reinventing the wheel in some cases to make the gears turn better for the industry. Compare the diamond smart table to a 20 year old Shelti for example...
It isn't a one day forklift class to teach you how to not knock boxes off the shelve or run anyone over, or an hour long video to laugh through at all of the mistakes being made. It's about preserving someones investment, and improving upon what has come before, to improve the standards of what the customer should expect anyway.



Retailers and independent mechanics would then be able to use a logo and the title "BTMA Certified Billiard Technician" - similar to ASE certified mechanics, etc.

After spending hours upon hours over the last week reading almost every thread in this forum, I would urge anyone interested in undertaking this endeavor to avoid getting bogged down with promoting the "one right way" to perform specific tasks - leveling, stretching cloth, etc.

I have read hundreds of posts from Real King Cobra, OTLB and others in this forum. No two of you do everything the same as another. Let's face it, the problem isn't wax vs. bondo vs. Durham's. The problem is mechanics that can't properly set up a table using ANY of those three methods. Instruction and certification will have to be as much about what NOT to do as what you SHOULD do.
This I can agree with. The point of this forum is pretty much for Q&A for our part of the Billiards world. Compare notes, learn new techniques try to top each other in various scenerios, and sometimes to just have fun, but over all this is about education. Not just for installers and mechanic's, retailers and manufacturers, Pros that want to learn more about their table and who to get to come do it, it's also for those do it yourselfers and the future table owners that want to know what they are investing in and why.
Feedback on various tablemakers/manufactures, and collector's is always available here. There has never been an area like this before now, with so much pooled knowledge and rivalry amongst peers, and online mentors. Some post regularly, some may offer suggestions periodically, some may think outside the box to create a different perspective, but it all boils down the same. Everyone here wants to improve upon the current lack of standards across the country and beyond. Some of us do many things the same way, and some of us just want to find a way to surpass Glen, and find some way to improve upon perfection. Even if it's only by a graduation on a Starrett level, it's constantly about self improvement that will only better the customers that we serve. As far as I can tell, the last year has seen enough improvements that this forum has already marked a form of progress that we are looking for. Just one little thread can be what someone else has been struggling with to learn without anyone to teach them. But just like in any other endeavor, there has to be someone to lead the way to give everyone else something to strive for. Not everyone is cutout to work on tables, that's obvious, or there wouldn't be so many hacks tearing things up around the globe. You don't choose this job to just have something to do, this job chooses you BECAUSE you're good at it, and take pride in what you have just undertaken to do.


I don't post much in here compared to others, but I've talked to just about everyone in this forum on the phone at least a couple of times, if not more. I generally just pm my phone number or a link to answer questions, or direct someone to the one most likely to help out in their area.
I do enjoy seeing the same faces in here, and the work/progress that has been made over the last few years, and of course I love to heckle a little bit here and there, but always in fun.
I'm good at what I do, but am I among the best? Not even close. There are guys around here that are probably as far above me as I am over the majority of the hacks out there, I just don't have much to say. If I do, I generally just pick up the phone. It's faster.
This is by far the longest post I have ever made in this section, and I hope it makes as much sense to someone else as it did in my sleep deprived mind, and I'm sure that I've once again managed to open a fresh can of worms for the debates, but that's what I'm here for, right guys!lol
I'm not trying to get confrontational about another point of view on this topic, but the loopholes I see in it are too large to ignore, because I don't see that as an improvement, I see that as making an official piece of paper to endorse the way things already are now. And to me, that's just another scam waiting to be exploited, not in the best interests of the industry, but probably in the best interest of a good deal of retailers. Good thing those retailers may be able to stumble into AZ and find the mechanics section to solve the problems that arise from lack of knowledge, training and experience.;)
 
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QuickEdward

New member
Silver Member
Cuephoric said:
I'm not trying to get confrontational about another point of view on this topic, but the loopholes I see in it are too large to ignore, because I don't see that as an improvement, I see that as making an official piece of paper to endorse the way things already are now. And to me, that's just another scam waiting to be exploited, not in the best interests of the industry, but probably in the best interest of a good deal of retailers.

Don't take offense here Cuephoric, but you're sounding like a hopeless defeatist.

Of course you're going to find loopholes in what I proposed. I'm one person, and I spent about 20 minutes thinking about how it can be done.

I heard a story one time about the guy who started FedEx. When he was in college he wrote a business plan outlining his vision for a nationwide package delivery company. Basically his professor said "Wait a minute...You're telling me that if I ship a package from Phoenix to Denver, it has to be routed through Memphis?" He was given a failing grade.

For every "loophole" you find, there's probably a feasible way to close it or overcome it. You posed some very real and major problems with my short proposal. Great. Now ask yourself, if YOU were in charge of a certification program, how would YOU design and run it?

I agree with you completely - training someone for a day or two and calling them mechanics and making no distinction between them and someone like OTLB and RealKingCobra and yourself isn't a great idea. So think of a better one. Sounds to me like you were on the right track. How about...

Two day course
Open to anyone
Skills taught- Basic breakdown, setup, recover and leveling of modern pool tables.
Certified Table Installer

One week course
Open to those with skills consistent with 2-5 years of full-time experience (at the discretion of the instructors)
Skills taught- Those above plus - commercial tables, antique tables, repairs, installing new cushions, working with worsted cloths, etc.
Certified Table Mechanic

Two week course
Open to those with skills consistent with 5+ years of full-time experience (at the discretion of the instructors)
Skills taught - Those above plus - woodworking, fabrication, rail conversions and extensions, appraisals, high-end custom work, etc.
Certified Master Table Mechanic

You don't choose this job to just have something to do, this job chooses you BECAUSE you're good at it, and take pride in what you have just undertaken to do.

If that were the case there would be no hacks out there. The truth is that some people choose this job because it can be done on pretty much a 100% cash basis, you're initial investment can be as little as $150 in tools and a crappy pickup truck, and most of your customers wouldn't know the difference between quality work and shabby work if you held a gun to their head.

I certainly won't pretend to have all the answers to overcoming these problems. I don't have 50% of the answers or even 10%. But I'd bet that I have 1 or 2% right and that if more mechanics, retailers and manufacturers put their minds to it we could come up with something worthwhile.
 

n10spool

PHD in table mechanics
Silver Member
It takes alot more then two weeks here and two weeks there. Some people can do it after 2 weeks or less but most really need to doit over and over again till there smooth at it. Customer fire to many question you get cloud ed in the brain and start making minor mistakes the are a pain to fix when they show up in the end.

I feel longer courses lead to better all around quality mechanics that Name brand companies like Simmonis, Championship, Artimis, Diamod, Brunswick can put trust in saying no the installers right or sure you had so so out there and theres a problem sure we will send the correct parts tommorow no question asked. This will bring out a true warrenty system, and great communication between bussiness, table owners and installers it will make a great all around business.

Craig
 

QuickEdward

New member
Silver Member
n10spool said:
It takes alot more then two weeks here and two weeks there. Some people can do it after 2 weeks or less but most really need to doit over and over again till there smooth at it. Customer fire to many question you get cloud ed in the brain and start making minor mistakes the are a pain to fix when they show up in the end.

I feel longer courses lead to better all around quality mechanics that Name brand companies like Simmonis, Championship, Artimis, Diamod, Brunswick can put trust in saying no the installers right or sure you had so so out there and theres a problem sure we will send the correct parts tommorow no question asked. This will bring out a true warrenty system, and great communication between bussiness, table owners and installers it will make a great all around business.

Craig

Of course these courses couldn't teach someone all the skills they need. Time, observation, guidance and repetition are the best teachers. But I still think it would be useful to have an organization that evaluated and certified the skills of the mechanics out there performing the work.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I feel that in order to be "certified" as a mechanic, you either need to (A) pass a skill level test,

(1) Setting up and leveling 3 piece slate tables.
(2) Installing bed cloth and rail cloth.
(3) Recovering bar tables correctly.
(4) Changing cushion rubber.
(5) Replacing cushions, and extending sub-rails.
(6) Trouble shooting and fixing bar tables.
(7) Be proficient at installing Simonis cloth, as all other cloths would be easy after that.
(8) Know how to move bar tables as well as other tables.

The list goes on and on, but the key to being a "Certified" mechanic...is the ability to perform all the tasks needed to be a mechanic...as if you've been doing it for the last 10 years.

No 2 or 3 week course is going to teach anyone that. Schooling needs to be on different levels, for different kinds of certification, depending on what the student is wanting to learn.

I don't think you can certify a mechanic in LESS than 6 months of training, which WOULD include a 2 month "IN FIELD TRAINING" period!

Glen
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
OTLB said:
don't forget snooker and billiard tables,,,,, and my favorite bumper.
Believe me John, I didn't forget, but that's what I mean by a 6 month training course. If you can already pass the skill level test set up by the board of Mechanic's...then you should be automatically "Certified" but if you can't then training is going to be required no matter what. If a mechanic fails to pass the test in just a couple of areas, then they need to work on them areas and retest. But in no way shape or form should a mechanic have less then 6 months to learn from scratch to be a certified mechanic. I'll be damned if I certify a mechanic in less time than it takes to learn how to do this job RIGHT, I don't care WHO the person is, or how long they've been working as a mechanic already!....Right is right, wrong is wrong!!!

Glen
 

A-1 billiards

FELT WRIGHT
Silver Member
OTLB said:
don't forget snooker and billiard tables,,,,, and my favorite bumper.

John,

Agreed, Snooker and billiard tables have their own special needs to make them play right.

How about? the repairing of all the bad hack work we all run into. Knowing when to repair, when to replace and when to walk away.

How about? all the woodworking processes to build replacement parts, install veneer, repair damages, strip and refinish, install HPL (Formica).

How about? Appraisal services for insurance purposes and damage claims.

How about? proper documentation of an install, pictures, paperwork.

If we are really going to clean up our industry, we need to address all the issues. JMO.

Jay
 
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OTLB

Banned
So many facets of what we do, not sure this will work that easily. Some guys paint walls and some portraits. There are different levels of performance. I don't move bar tables so I am not certified. This is how guys will feel if you mandate that they have to do everything. That doesn't make any sense does it?
 
I'm with you. I personally have no interest in installing new veneer on any table or installing formica. I think some facets are just above and beyond what we were really need governed.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
OTLB said:
So many facets of what we do, not sure this will work that easily. Some guys paint walls and some portraits. There are different levels of performance. I don't move bar tables so I am not certified. This is how guys will feel if you mandate that they have to do everything. That doesn't make any sense does it?
I agree with you both Jay and John, but "restoration" is way different than "Servicing" a pool table. Changing Formica on rails is far different than knowing how to keep the puckers out of the rail cloth. As I talked to Jay about the Formica on rails, I think there should be a place the customer could be directed to in order to perform that task, but don't believe it should be a requirement of a mechanic to be certified. And John, I agree that not everyone wants to move or recover bar tables, therefor a certification card should include a list of things the mechanic is "certified" to perform, but never the less....KNOWING how to move a bar table wouldn't hurt to know, or how to recover one as well, but that doesn't mean you have to pass the bar table test to be certified to work on all other types of tables. Not all mechanics are going to work on snooker or billiards tables either as you're both right...these tables require a different kind of knowledge then working on say a GC or Diamond. But, leveling the slates on a snooker or billiards table should be the same basic knowledge as leveling the slates on a GC or Diamond;)

Master Billiards Technician Certified
Certified Billiard Technician
Certified Billiards Installer...you can fill in the rest of the blanks;)

Glen
 
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