5 Line Quarters System Overview

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Almost everyone here has been trying to be extraordinarily civil lately.

How on God's good green Simonis covered Earth do you repeatedly get away with this language without being sent to the locker room? *Anyone* else here would incur a severe penalty for this kind of ad hominem attack.

Lou Figueroa

Here's what you need to consider LOU. Doing your own teaching/training videos with all your years of experience instead of bashing somebody who has done more time consuming instructional ones for free to help players of all calibers.

You've been on AZ for 12 years ripping those who teach and not once have you put yourself on the line with anything.

 

stan shuffett

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the video Stan. One question... other than using Centennial balls marked at the quarters. Do you have a way of always finding the quarter of the ball? I know when i use Cte.i pick up the center to edge crystal clear from there i slide over until edge to a comes into my peripheral vision. Then sweep into shot line. Ive tried it both ways many times. For me i struggle landing right on the quarter everytime. So again is there a rock solid way of landing on the quarters visually?

There is no absolute visual reference for the quarter lines location for the quarters system.
The quarter line represents a 14.5 angle meaning that if a Cb OB relation should be at that angle the OB will be aimed up center pocket with a 14.5 3/4 ball alignment. If it's not dead as if in slightly off, that's where fine adjustments must occur for the fraction systems.

The 15 degree perception in CTE is a different deal. It's a 2 line perception that can only be seen perfectly from one location just like a zero angle for a traditional alignment.

Stan Shuffett
 
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SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Your question should be directed toward Stan. Why is a professional CTE man giving a lesson on traditional fractional aiming if he thinks fractions are so inferior?

My guess is because he's highly qualified CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTOR and can give a lesson on anything and everything pool related.

Here's something to refresh the memory about his qualifications:

I have been a billiards instructor for 29 years. I obtained my initial BCA training under Jerry Briesath in 1989 and his teachings have been the foundation for my game and for what I have imparted to others. In 1992, I became one of the original 19 chartered members of the BCA Instructors’ Program as we know it today. In October, 2006, I added BCA Advanced Level training to my instructing credentials.

Stan completed his training for PBIA Master Instructor in February of 2014 under the direction of Scott Lee.

Is that good enough for you? Btw, are you certified as an instructor with any organization?
 
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stan shuffett

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mr Shuffett, at approximately 2:02, you shoot zero at the 14 ball and state that you want to pop it off the rail with some inside.

So, from your shooter point of view, is this left or right of center?

Is it english "spin" or more of a deflect type glance, which i would assume applies a spin but maybe 1 or 2 vertical axis revolutions by the time it collides with the ob?

Can you explain in detail please? Come in center or zero and then pivot half tip left or right of just below "center" cb?

The system dictates a zero, but there is a slight angle, so im not sure what side of the cb is "inside", because one of those sides would then offset the "tweener" but i have no idea what actual stroke angle you are applying.

Do you still apply a left or right angled cue with this system or do you target shoot square down the line number?

I dont aim really, so i dont have a use for this, but i like to watch your videos because there isnt much out there thats interesting to me.

I'm just trying to understand as much about this game as possible, but I swear this is really confusing to me unless i know some details. I can apply inside, which to me, would be right of center, and make a thick or thin collision if i want to.

So that takes me to kind of a problem i have and i dont know how to pop a ball off the rail, other than using velocity and stun.

I dont think you are applying much spin in that shot if i had to bet because at that shallow angle, spin with skid will produce "throw" and in these particular shots near the rail, left or right spin with skid, produces the same effect that i can explain, but ill just leave it right there.

You dont have to reply in great detail unless you want to, thanks Mr Shuffett, and im glad this video is over 30 minutes long.

Oh, you are wanting to open up another can of worms. Well, I dont mind giving out the info for the shot. My goal is to give out real info here, if possible, info that's not all that common and easy to come by.

Popping the ball is another word for pinning the Cb.

On that shot I did three purposeful things. I slightly elevated, used speed and pivoted a mm or so for a touch of inside.

1 and 2- I elevated and used stun speed so that Cb would leave the table. I did not want a rolling Cb across the cloth. That diminishes accuracy. Shoot that shot with a dime placed a few inches in front of the Cb and the Cb will hop over the coin. I popped it over the coin or as CJ would say, "pinned the Cb ball."

3. I deflected the Cb purposely with TOI p in order to counteract the sliding contact between the Cb and OB as I was shooting at only a half pocket.

Stan Shuffett
 
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stan shuffett

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm sorry, but all I've heard and read from Stan concerning fractional aiming is that it's for "amateurs", that's it's "unprofessional" and just "full of gaps". He has been consistently negative toward fractions and my book. A couple of weeks ago he said he was ordering my book and would have a pro friend of his critique it. Now that he's seen my material he decides to share his 2nd most favorite and most accurate aiming system next to CTE pro one. So I guess fractions aren't that bad after all....lol, as long as it's traditional fractions where the player has to estimate/guess the aim points.

Your comments should be directed toward Stan. Why is a professional CTE man giving a lesson on traditional fractional aiming if he thinks fractions are so inferior? And the quarters system is not Stan's "info"....it's been around for many many decades.

And my book isn't free for the same reason CTE DVDs and the upcoming CTE book are not free. It takes a lot of work to put together things like this. I respect Stan for doing what he has done with Hal Houle's CTE, and Stan deserves recognition and compensation for his work.

Fractional system are amateur oriented. You say that yourself. It's no secret. Fractional systems are choc-ful of gaps. Having said that, I think that fractional systems are great for many league players, especially the 5 line system on a bar table.

Stan Shuffett
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
My guess is because he's highly qualified CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTOR and can give a lesson on anything and everything pool related.

Here's something to refresh the memory about his qualifications:

I have been a billiards instructor for 29 years. I obtained my initial BCA training under Jerry Briesath in 1989 and his teachings have been the foundation for my game and for what I have imparted to others. In 1992, I became one of the original 19 chartered members of the BCA Instructors’ Program as we know it today. In October, 2006, I added BCA Advanced Level training to my instructing credentials.

Stan completed his training for PBIA Master Instructor in February of 2014 under the direction of Scott Lee.

Is that good enough for you? Btw, are you certified as an instructor with any organization?

Once again your words are stained with a negative attitude. I am in no way questioning Stan's credentials as a fine instructor. There are plenty of testimonials from satisfied students as to his excellent teaching skills. I am questioning his motive for doing a fractional aiming lesson, considering he's on record here explicitly expressing negativity toward fractional aiming. And I certainly agree with all of his negative remarks concerning traditional fractional aiming. But now he admits it is his 2nd favorite aiming system.

And honestly, with no disrespect toward the many wonderful certified instructors here on AZ and all around the globe, becoming a "certified" instructor is not a difficult task. It requires a basic understanding of billiards principles, a good skill level, and money. Yes, money. A few years back I looked into becoming a BCA-certified instructor because there are none in my area. I ended up deciding I had more important things to do with my money.

Certifications and membership in well-established organizations looks great on a resume, and it's probably needed to be viewed more professionally for business purposes, but it's no automatic indicator of superiority. For example, 99% of the world's geniuses are NOT members of Mensa. Does that mean they aren't really geniuses? No, it probably means they simply didn't want to jump through all the hoops and fork out the required money needed to be able to carry that little Mensa membership card around in their pocket.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Once again your words are stained with a negative attitude.

Like nicotine stains on undies? That's your perception. It's extremely positive about Stan's record and accomplishments as a teacher/certified instructor.

I am in no way questioning Stan's credentials as a fine instructor. There are plenty of testimonials from satisfied students as to his excellent teaching skills. I am questioning his motive for doing a fractional aiming lesson, considering he's on record here explicitly expressing negativity toward fractional aiming. And I certainly agree with all of his negative remarks concerning traditional fractional aiming. But now he admits it is his 2nd favorite aiming system.

So? Do you think he should have said Ghost Ball, Contact Points, or Lights?

And honestly, with no disrespect toward the many wonderful certified instructors here on AZ and all around the globe, becoming a "certified" instructor is not a difficult task. It requires a basic understanding of billiards principles, a good skill level, and money. Yes, money. A few years back I looked into becoming a BCA-certified instructor because there are none in my area. I ended up deciding I had more important things to do with my money.

Guitar strings or new guitar? A few years back you hadn't created your fractional aiming system. Don't you think it would behoove you to reconsider?

Certifications and membership in well-established organizations looks great on a resume, and it's probably needed to be viewed more professionally for business purposes, but it's no automatic indicator of superiority.

What is as far as professional instructors in pool? A 19 year old hot shot who can run 5 racks of 9-ball who can beat everyone in his pool room?
Stan has some impressive national playing credentials of his own.


For example, 99% of the world's geniuses are NOT members of Mensa.

They don't have to be but what test was given to determine if they're geniuses or not? And where did that number of 99% come from? How about a link. Everybody who is a member of Mensa isn't considered a genius. It takes a higher IQ than the level to apply or be selected for Mensa.

Does that mean they aren't really geniuses? No, it probably means they simply didn't want to jump through all the hoops and fork out the required money needed to be able to carry that little Mensa membership card around in their pocket.

Or they aren't geniuses at all but either think they are or claim to be. You do know in order to be a member of Mensa one has to be tested first, don't you? You don't just show up at the door and say, "Here I am and here's my money, I'm a genius"

https://www.us.mensa.org/join/testi...d9CCgqaDdSD8sAMf3x4_0jpTDmUPUF3y8UaAm3L8P8HAQ

AND: https://www.us.mensa.org/join/testing/scoreevaluation/
 
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hogie583

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks Stan. It just hit me like a ton of bricks! Pertaining to CTE I perceive all the aim points from one position with two lines. I get it. I can see these two visual lines and from only one position doesn't look right from anywhere else.. Which leads me to believe I'm not stepping into the shot line correctly. I'll work a little bit more on my footwork which puts me into that ever so slightly angled cue. Ill follow up in email. No need for me to hijack thread of the five line system. And here I am all this time thinking that I'm not getting on the quarters properly when I am. Thanks Tim
 

evis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Almost everyone here has been trying to be extraordinarily civil lately.

How on God's good green Simonis covered Earth do you repeatedly get away with this language without being sent to the locker room? *Anyone* else here would incur a severe penalty for this kind of ad hominem attack.

Lou Figueroa
The only person that cares...is you Lou.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member


...... where did that number of 99% come from? How about a link. Everybody who is a member of Mensa isn't considered a genius. It takes a higher IQ than the level to apply or be selected for Mensa.

Or they aren't geniuses at all but either think they are or claim to be. You do know in order to be a member of Mensa one has to be tested first, don't you?

https://www.us.mensa.org/join/testi...d9CCgqaDdSD8sAMf3x4_0jpTDmUPUF3y8UaAm3L8P8HAQ

Mensa has around 120,000 members. I don't have to visit the link to know this. There are more than 7 billion people in the world. Based on statistics, probably 8 or 9 million would qualify as genius level. So 120,000 club members out of a pool of 8,000,000 comes out to around 1%, leaving 99% of eligible geniuses not in the club.

And yes, you have be a genius to be a member of Mensa. You take a pre-qualification test first. If the score reaches the minimum score required, another test is given and required to be witnessed by a Mensa representative, along with an interview. If all of this satisfies the organization's standards, you pay your annual fee and become a member.

None of this has a thing to do with Stan's excellent "quarters" video lesson. I only used the Mensa organization as an example of recognized certification vs un-recognized certification. The true ability to teach doesn't come from an organization handing out certifications. It's obvious Stan is a good teacher, and it's not because he is "certified". It's not because he's a great player with a history of accomplishments. It's because teaching is an art, and he has a gift for it.

Still, traditional fractional aiming, which is what this video lesson describes, is full of gaps. When a player doesn't have the experience to distinguish a 2 cut from a 3 cut, the gaps in between these two unknowns are irrelevant.
 
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stan shuffett

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mensa has around 120,000 members. I don't have to visit the link to know this. There are more than 7 billion people in the world. Based on statistics, probably 8 or 9 million would qualify as genius level. So 120,000 club members out of a pool of 8,000,000 comes out to around 1%, leaving 99% of eligible geniuses not in the club.

And yes, you have be a genius to be a member of Mensa. You take a pre-qualification test first. If the score reaches the minimum score required, another test is given and required to be witnessed by a Mensa representative, along with an interview. If all of this satisfies the organization's standards, you pay your annual fee and become a member.

None of this has a thing to do with Stan's excellent "quarters" video lesson. I only used the Mensa organization as an example of recognized certification vs un-recognized certification. The true ability to teach doesn't come from an organization handing out certifications. It's obvious Stan is a good teacher, and it's not because he is "certified". It's not because he's a great player with a history of accomplishments. It's because teaching is an art, and he has a gift for it.

Still, traditional fractional aiming, which is what this video lesson describes, is full of gaps. When a player doesn't have the experience to distinguish a 2 cut from a 3 cut, the gaps in between these two unknowns are irrelevant.

Here's the rub.....all fractional systems have gaps, including yours, and those in the know are well versed in that but will not speak up here. AtLarge is the exception to the rule.
Although, there a strong degree of accuracy to what you present, there are still fine feel adjustments that are required. See if Dr Dave will present your work in BD as a no gap center cue ball with the same stringent guidelines as used for CCB CTE. No chance that Dr Dave would endorse that assertion, nor would Bob Jewett.

If a player is so low level that they can't telll a 2 from a 3 they will need all the help they can get. But telling a 2 from a 3 is only a few days worth of work. It's that simple.

Stan Shuffett
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm sorry, but all I've heard and read from Stan concerning fractional aiming is that it's for "amateurs", that's it's "unprofessional" and just "full of gaps". He has been consistently negative toward fractions and my book. A couple of weeks ago he said he was ordering my book and would have a pro friend of his critique it. Now that he's seen my material he decides to share his 2nd most favorite and most accurate aiming system next to CTE pro one. So I guess fractions aren't that bad after all....lol, as long as it's traditional fractions where the player has to estimate/guess the aim points.

Your comments should be directed toward Stan. Why is a professional CTE man giving a lesson on traditional fractional aiming if he thinks fractions are so inferior? And the quarters system is not Stan's "info"....it's been around for many many decades.

And my book isn't free for the same reason CTE DVDs and the upcoming CTE book are not free. It takes a lot of work to put together things like this. I respect Stan for doing what he has done with Hal Houle's CTE, and Stan deserves recognition and compensation for his work.

Stan did this video because people requested it. Start your own thread.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Mensa has around 120,000 members. I don't have to visit the link to know this. There are more than 7 billion people in the world. Based on statistics, probably 8 or 9 million would qualify as genius level. So 120,000 club members out of a pool of 8,000,000 comes out to around 1%, leaving 99% of eligible geniuses not in the club.

You can play around with all the numbers you want but it doesn't mean didly squat. You can assume anything and your numbers are skewed. Their estimate is 1 in 400 people (maybe) or .25% And of all those 7 billion people in the world, there are a billion or more that have no chance of even being considered because a number of countries are so depressed economically and educationally they have no shot at getting higher education for any success in life.

And yes, you have be a genius to be a member of Mensa.

WRONG! Entrance into Mensa is around 130-132 IQ. The yearly dues to belong to Mensa are so cheap it's absurd. The Mensa Admission Test costs $40, takes two hours, and consists of two separate exams: the Mensa Wonderlic® and the Mensa Admission Test. Anyone scoring in the 98th percentile or higher on either gains the right to pay $70 per year for membership. I spend more than $70 for dinner and drinks for 2 people all the time. $70 is the starting amount excluding tip and goes up.

What is the IQ of a genius?
Genius IQ is generally considered to begin around 140 to 145, representing ~.25% of the population (1 in 400). Here's a rough guide: 115-124 - Above average (e.g., university students). 125-134 - Gifted (e.g., post-graduate students)


You take a pre-qualification test first. If the score reaches the minimum score required, another test is given and required to be witnessed by a Mensa representative, along with an interview. If all of this satisfies the organization's standards, you pay your annual fee and become a member.

It's in the links I posted.

None of this has a thing to do with Stan's excellent "quarters" video lesson. I only used the Mensa organization as an example of recognized certification vs un-recognized certification.

Where does certification come from if it's unrecognized?

The true ability to teach doesn't come from an organization handing out certifications. It's obvious Stan is a good teacher, and it's not because he is "certified". It's not because he's a great player with a history of accomplishments. It's because teaching is an art, and he has a gift for it.

Or maybe because he in fact was a professional CERTIFIED teacher in the school system for over 30 years instilling knowledge into those young empty fertile brains. It's been his life purpose. His life purpose is exactly what he's been. A super father, husband, friend, and teacher.
His post retirement mission is to continue more effective ways to play the game of pool. That is until he comes into this forum where he's constantly attacked and vilified like some kind of low life know nothing scam artist huckster. It's disgusting!


Still, traditional fractional aiming, which is what this video lesson describes, is full of gaps. When a player doesn't have the experience to distinguish a 2 cut from a 3 cut, the gaps in between these two unknowns are irrelevant.

OK, now what?
 
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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Concerning my interest in becoming a certified instructor, you asked....


...... A few years back you hadn't created your fractional aiming system. Don't you think it would behoove you to reconsider?

I first created the system in Poolology back in 2003, 14 years ago. I realized then it had great potential as far as helping players learn to pocket balls, so I looked into the BCA certification and decided against it, choosing to someday put the material in book format.

I've given quite a few percussion lessons, guitar lessons, piano lessons, and advanced math lessons, all without any official certifications. Experience, knowledge, and a passion to help others learn is what creates a good teacher. I believe Stan has all of these. The certifications are merely pieces of paper that prove he meets minimum requirements to be labeled as an "official" instructor. For a person to make a living at teaching, official certifications are a must, but those certifications aren't what makes them great teachers.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Concerning my interest in becoming a certified instructor, you asked....



I first created the system in Poolology back in 2003, 14 years ago. I realized then it had great potential as far as helping players learn to pocket balls, so I looked into the BCA certification and decided against it, choosing to someday put the material in book format.

And that you did! Congratulations! Seriously

I've given quite a few percussion lessons, guitar lessons, piano lessons, and advanced math lessons, all without any official certifications. Experience, knowledge, and a passion to help others learn is what creates a good teacher.

Up to a certain point or level and I know one doesn't have to be certified to give lessons in anything. You can go to a driving range and see hacks giving lessons to other hacks all the time.

As long as you've been involved performing with music and the guitar, I'm sure you're a very good teacher. But I'd rather go to Joe Bonamassa for lessons even though he isn't certified either.


I believe Stan has all of these. The certifications are merely pieces of paper that prove he meets minimum requirements to be labeled as an "official" instructor. For a person to make a living at teaching, official certifications are a must, but those certifications aren't what makes them great teachers.

In order to get those certificates he did have to learn more than he knew and teach them a certain way. At least that's my understanding of the BCA and possibly others.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dave, after reviewing Mensa's website, which has changed quite a bit over several years, I'm convinced they have weakened their requirements in an effort to obtain more paying members. Just a few years ago the annual fee was $200. I realized then only a narcissistic fool or proud parent would pay $200 a year for the privilege of having that little white card to carry around, and the fancy membership certificate to hang on the wall. At $70 and a below 140 IQ requirement, I bet their membership is soaring up. Unfortunately, their credibility as a rare society of high IQs is not.

And who wouldn't go to Bonamassa for lessons?!! He's incredible!
 
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goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's NOT the BCA Instructors program!

It is the PBIA
Professional Billiard Instructors Association

randyg
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Dave, after reviewing Mensa's website, which has changed quite a bit over several years, I'm convinced they have weakened their requirements in an effort to obtain more paying members. Just a few years ago the annual fee was $200. I realized then only a narcissistic fool or proud parent would pay $200 a year for the privilege of having that little white card to carry around, and the fancy membership certificate to hang on the wall. At $70 and a below 140 IQ requirement, I bet their membership is soaring up. Unfortunately, their credibility as a rare society of high IQs is not.

A 132 IQ isn't anything to take lightly. But, as you stated earlier, there are many who just don't want to be members for whatever reason.

And who wouldn't go to Bonamassa for lessons?!! He's incredible!

I'd just rather watch and listen to him. Too much work to learn.

Pool players should be saying the same thing about Stan regarding "who wouldn't go to him for lessons"?!! and some other pro instructors. But look what happens on pool forums unlike the music. They blast him, CJ Wiley, Mike Sigel, Shane, Geno, and a number of players/instructors.

Can you imagine someone telling Bonamassa what he's teaching or does couldn't possibly work and he's a snake oil salesman charging for something that's going to hurt them and others just to make money? Doesn't even make sense, does it?

Welcome to the wonderful world of POOL FORUMS!
 
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