Why English
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Why English - 06-20-2019, 11:37 AM

Why is side spin called English in some parts of the world yet it is called side spin in other parts?
  
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06-20-2019, 11:50 AM

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Originally Posted by kaznj View Post
Why is side spin called English in some parts of the world yet it is called side spin in other parts?
It's actually not a pool term, but instead a billiards term. Danny DiLiberto has touched, during his commentary, on the fact that the first billiard players that effectively utilized sidespin were the English players, so that others began to refer to sidespin as English. Apparently, the term hasn't caught on everywhere, but it caught on in pool in any circles.
  
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06-20-2019, 11:52 AM

think it came from the french because the english were supposedly the first to use leather tips, enabling them to use sidespin
  
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06-20-2019, 12:05 PM

longhorns2...Nope, it was the other way around. The leather tip was invented by a captain in the French military...Francois Mingaud. He invented it while he was being incarcerated by the French king. When Mingaud got out, he went to England, picked up a piece of calcium carbonate (think White Cliffs of Dover), rubbed it on his new tip, and then envisioned, practiced and mastered the use of draw, follow, sidespin and masse. There are historical drawings of the shots he figured out how to do. He went on to entertain all the royalty in Europe for years.

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think it came from the french because the english were supposedly the first to use leather tips, enabling them to use sidespin


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06-20-2019, 12:33 PM

Cool stories, bro!

No, but for real, their cool! Thanks for sharing!

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06-20-2019, 01:05 PM

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Originally Posted by kaznj View Post
Why is side spin called English in some parts of the world yet it is called side spin in other parts?
I think that no one knows for sure.

The best reference for billiard-related words, their origins and meanings, is Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards." The earliest example found of the word "English" to mean side spin was in the New York Times in 1873. Shamos points out that the use of side spin was documented in 1806 which pre-dated the invention of the tip by Mingaud (about 1818). Chalk was also used before tips were invented.

Shamos speculates that the usage came about because English visitors introduced side spin. There is a long time between the first use of side spin along with universal use of tips and the first recorded use of "English" to mean side. I've also seen a theory that "english" somehow transmogrified from "angled".


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06-20-2019, 01:23 PM

Have you ever asked for a Kleenex, but recieved a generic tissue instead? Have you ever used a copy machine that wasn't a Zerox? How about I'll have a Coke, but received a different brand of soda?

All of these are brands. What does that have to do with English you may ask? Well, all of the brands above were first in the market place and their brand name became synonymous with the product. The same for the word English in the since that we are using it. The English players were the first to develop side-spin with a leather tip, so the term stuck.

That it folks. Nothing more to it.


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06-20-2019, 01:30 PM

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Originally Posted by jason View Post
Have you ever asked for a Kleenex, but recieved a generic tissue instead? Have you ever used a copy machine that wasn't a Zerox? How about I'll have a Coke, but received a different brand of soda?

All of these are brands. What does that have to do with English you may ask? Well, all of the brands above were first in the market place and their brand name became synonymous with the product. The same for the word English in the since that we are using it. The English players were the first to develop side-spin with a leather tip, so the term stuck.

That it folks. Nothing more to it.
Except that's not what actually happened.


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06-20-2019, 01:45 PM

If there was any justice, it would be called ‘tourner ‘...honouring Mingaud.

In Canada, us hosers were raised calling it ‘siding’...even Alex uses that term sometimes


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06-20-2019, 01:52 PM

All interesting explanations. Thanks all
  
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06-20-2019, 01:59 PM

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Except that's not what actually happened.
Please enlighten me then Bob.


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06-20-2019, 02:39 PM

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Please enlighten me then Bob.
He already did, in the post directly before your one
  
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06-20-2019, 02:56 PM

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Zerox
Xerox

" The technique was originally called electrophotography. It was later renamed xerography—from the Greek roots ξηρός xeros, "dry" and -γραφία -graphia, "writing"—to emphasize that, unlike reproduction techniques then in use such as cyanotype, this process used no liquid chemicals.

(from wikipedia)

  
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06-20-2019, 03:23 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
It's actually not a pool term, but instead a billiards term. Danny DiLiberto has touched, during his commentary, on the fact that the first billiard players that effectively utilized sidespin were the English players, so that others began to refer to sidespin as English. Apparently, the term hasn't caught on everywhere, but it caught on in pool in any circles.
I doubt it. What I really think is that the first people that Americans saw use spin affectively for English. So it stuck, like the names Alabama 8-ball, Boston Pool, French Fries. As others have said, the French invented the spin that we know.

On a related subject, I am fully convinced (and I have a little linguistics background to use as reasoning) that the word massé (masser) is actually a bastardization of the name of the city Marseille (in France). I also took six years of French, and the verb masser initially had nothing to do with billiards or masts or straight up and down actions or hammers.

In Boston, the word massé sounds phonetically equivalent to Marseille. I theorize that the first players that the English saw use extreme side spin were from France (and maybe specifically from Marseille), and shots like that would be “de Marseille.”

I’ve read rebutts to this, none of which make sense. The modern usage of the word massé seemed to all come from billiards (to hammer, to strike from above). The only usage my French teachers knew of the word other than billiard was masser = to massage.


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06-20-2019, 03:41 PM

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Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
I doubt it. What I really think is that the first people that Americans saw use spin affectively for English. So it stuck, like the names Alabama 8-ball, Boston Pool, French Fries. As others have said, the French invented the spin that we know.

On a related subject, I am fully convinced (and I have a little linguistics background to use as reasoning) that the word massé (masser) is actually a bastardization of the name of the city Marseille (in France). I also took six years of French, and the verb masser initially had nothing to do with billiards or masts or straight up and down actions or hammers.

In Boston, the word massé sounds phonetically equivalent to Marseille. I theorize that the first players that the English saw use extreme side spin were from France (and maybe specifically from Marseille), and shots like that would be “de Marseille.”

I’ve read rebutts to this, none of which make sense. The modern usage of the word massé seemed to all come from billiards (to hammer, to strike from above). The only usage my French teachers knew of the word other than billiard was masser = to massage.


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Due to my propensity to make very difficult, almost impossible shots under pressure players might occasionally say: “That shot was six.” Same thing.

Of course they dropped the “pack” just because pool players are too lazy to use two syllables where they can get away with one...



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