Mike Sigel's GPPA leagues

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Curt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm curious about everyone's opinions concerning this new league. What do think of the way the handicapping has been designed. It is very different using BIH as the handicap vehicle. It looks like between the handicapping and scoring systems there will be little room to sandbag. THAT would be a change in the right direction! I see the large top purse being quite high, $250,000 but how will the remaining $750,000 be paid? Now I see Mike on the AZB front page waiving the $25.00 membership fee if you sign up now. I also understand that the Lleague Ooperators are to receive only 25% of the weekly dues. After being informed of the LO's responsibilities AND the team captain's "duties" (many of which would fall back on the LO if not done by the capt) and after thinking about recruiting enough teams AND venues to play and the possibility of having to pay 1 or 2 others to help with the geographical challenges, it seems to me that the offered 25% may not be adequate to attract enough League Operators.
What do you all think?
 
Wedge

Wedge

WO Wedge Lock
Silver Member
My Opinion

I would like to see the new league be successful and it has the makings of bringing a lot of new people into the sport. Thus helping room owners stay in business! I say give Mike a chance to make it work!

Wedge
 
jeffj2h

jeffj2h

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not sure I like the idea of a handicap system based on BIH. GPPA rules say, depending on your handicap level, a certain number of times PER GAME you can take BIH at the beginning of your turn. That takes a lot of the safety and kicking game out. I think it would be frustrating to play a great safe then your opponent just walks up and picks up the CB. The flip side is this system would be less frustrating to lower skilled players. Those players play less good safes and don't kick as well, so GPPA rules help them a lot.
 
Wright Shot

Wright Shot

Sugartree Madness
Silver Member
jeffj2h said:
I'm not sure I like the idea of a handicap system based on BIH. GPPA rules say, depending on your handicap level, a certain number of times PER GAME you can take BIH at the beginning of your turn. That takes a lot of the ng to play a great safe then your opponent just walks up and picks up the CB. The flip side is this system would be less frustrating to lower skilled players. Those players play less good safes and don't kick as well, so GPPA rules help them a lot.
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These are my thoughts exactly. I think it alters the game too much. I doubt I could sell this format in my area. I love other key parts of the way the league is set up. Especially being able to keep your team together long term. That is the biggest problem I think the APA has.

Chris
 
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Petros Andrikop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It brings the handicap issue into discussion once again, too much of it and it's more of a game instead of a sport. A delicate balance must be kept in order to preserve Pool in the long run..
 
jeffj2h

jeffj2h

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, team breakup is an issue in APA. We have 3 strong players in our APA team and all 3 got moved up last season. So we had to move to the Double Jeopardy format so all of us could play in the same night. After a month it's working fine, but it does double the work of our captain, to make matchups and monitor 2 score sheets instead of one.
 
alstl

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I saw Mike demonstrate it on Pat Fleming's game show and I liked the idea. It seems like his bih system will reduce sandbagging.

The challenge will be to attract league operators.
 
B

Baby Huey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We have a lot of new leagues vying for the "pool players dollars." APA and BCA continue to remain the dominant leagues in the USA. As a room owner I am reluctant to venture into any new leagues as I don't want to water down my available pool of players. I am not saying any of these new leagues won't be successful but my concern is that attempting to push these leagues, if they are not successful, would create a lot of confusion for the players. There are some very successful regional leagues which give back over 90% of the money taken in. Case in point is the Santa Barbara Pool League. They are loosely affiliated with the BCA and all their money goes to the players with the Bars and Pool Rooms rotating hosting weekly events. They are on the Internet with a great website. They have hundreds of players and the APA can not get a foothold in their city. I think consolidation and regional leagues with more money going back to the players is the future.
 
KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Baby Huey said:
We have a lot of new leagues vying for the "pool players dollars." APA and BCA continue to remain the dominant leagues in the USA. As a room owner I am reluctant to venture into any new leagues as I don't want to water down my available pool of players. I am not saying any of these new leagues won't be successful but my concern is that attempting to push these leagues, if they are not successful, would create a lot of confusion for the players. There are some very successful regional leagues which give back over 90% of the money taken in. Case in point is the Santa Barbara Pool League. They are loosely affiliated with the BCA and all their money goes to the players with the Bars and Pool Rooms rotating hosting weekly events. They are on the Internet with a great website. They have hundreds of players and the APA can not get a foothold in their city. I think consolidation and regional leagues with more money going back to the players is the future.
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Yep. Folks are beginning to question how much does it really cost to run a league. And half the money is going to the LO? I personally think it is ridiculous.

The ACS only requires a one time $10 membership fee, and all of the weekly dues are up to the league to do what it wants... which in our case, we throw a few bucks to the owner for playing on good equipment, a few bucks to the person who makes the schedules and keeps track of the stats, and the rest is split among the 16 teams that play... obviously favoring the top teams....The league operators are NOT paid. I know, I helped start and run the league years ago....

Throwing money to an LO for a "chance" to go to Vegas is crazy. ACS you can go to vegas every year, with no qualifiers, no playoffs, just sign up your team and you're in. And the money you saved over a couple of years will pay for the Vegas trip anyways :) And if you don't wanna spend money, just play in a ACS state tourney (or other system does not put that "carrot" in front of the players)
 
krupa

krupa

The Dream Operator
Silver Member
I read the article in Billiards Digest about GPPA and here are my thoughts:

With the exception of the guaranteed money and the ball-in-hand handicap system, I don't see much difference between GPPA and NAPA:

In NAPA:
* there are no skill-level caps per team
* you only score wins/losses so you can't affect your SL with extra innings
* Even if you teammates lost, you're still motivated to win because you want your team to get all the points they can to get into the end-of-session playoffs and/or qualify for nationals
 
BRussell

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ChicagoRJ said:
Yep. Folks are beginning to question how much does it really cost to run a league. And half the money is going to the LO? I personally think it is ridiculous.

The ACS only requires a one time $10 membership fee, and all of the weekly dues are up to the league to do what it wants... which in our case, we throw a few bucks to the owner for playing on good equipment, a few bucks to the person who makes the schedules and keeps track of the stats, and the rest is split among the 16 teams that play... obviously favoring the top teams....The league operators are NOT paid. I know, I helped start and run the league years ago....

Throwing money to an LO for a "chance" to go to Vegas is crazy. ACS you can go to vegas every year, with no qualifiers, no playoffs, just sign up your team and you're in. And the money you saved over a couple of years will pay for the Vegas trip anyways :) And if you don't wanna spend money, just play in a ACS state tourney (or other system does not put that "carrot" in front of the players)
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Making the league a profitable business for operators could change the dynamic significantly, and perhaps for the better. Rather than a small, fixed pool of money just being redistributed back to the same people who put it in, some churn could make things interesting. I could imagine advertisements, sponsorships, and the like. A little profit motive can do wonders. ;)

The league in general seems to be really geared towards expanding the base to a wider audience, from the entrepreneurial league operator system, to the handicap, to the ANYONE CAN WIN ONE MILLLLLLLION DOLLARS!!!!!! shtick.

One thing is for certain: Pool purists will hate the handicap system. Being able to pick up the cue ball a couple of times during the game will fundamentally change the game, much more than other handicap systems.
 
Wright Shot

Wright Shot

Sugartree Madness
Silver Member
One thing is for certain: Pool purists will hate the handicap system. Being able to pick up the cue ball a couple of times during the game will fundamentally change the game, much more than other handicap systems.[/QUOTE]

Too much in my opinion. I am somewhat traditional minded. If we change the game then how do we compare stats when it comes to record keeping. We take the time to document every statistic possible for years on end and then redefine rules that change everything. How can we possibly gauge how good we are compared to generations before us without the records. Standards are very important.

Chris
 
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Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can tell you what I made. League fees were $5 per person, per week. My cut was $1 ($5 per team...another $5 went to APA Corporate). I was upfront about it, and my players thought it was fair...nobody *****ed, and everybody had fun. The most I ever had was <100 teams, so nobody was getting rich, but $500/wk 20 yrs ago in MT wasn't bad for a side job running the league. Some LO's are making 20x that, but they have 1000+ teams. Still not enough for all the headaches and crybabies, imo. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

ChicagoRJ said:
sorry 40% for some leagues. Not exactly half, but close. If you wanna share with us the cut for APA, I'm all ears :)
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Donny Lutz

Donny Lutz

Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
ACS, yes.

ChicagoRJ said:
Yep. Folks are beginning to question how much does it really cost to run a league. And half the money is going to the LO? I personally think it is ridiculous.

The ACS only requires a one time $10 membership fee, and all of the weekly dues are up to the league to do what it wants... which in our case, we throw a few bucks to the owner for playing on good equipment, a few bucks to the person who makes the schedules and keeps track of the stats, and the rest is split among the 16 teams that play... obviously favoring the top teams....The league operators are NOT paid. I know, I helped start and run the league years ago....

Throwing money to an LO for a "chance" to go to Vegas is crazy. ACS you can go to vegas every year, with no qualifiers, no playoffs, just sign up your team and you're in. And the money you saved over a couple of years will pay for the Vegas trip anyways :) And if you don't wanna spend money, just play in a ACS state tourney (or other system does not put that "carrot" in front of the players)
Click to expand...

Great points. I tried to get an ACS league going where I live, but got limited support from the pool community. They were sold on the "win a free trip to Vegas" myth* and the Budweiser/APA connection.

*One must invest at least two seasons of APA fees just for the "chance" of winning that free trip.
 
KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Scott Lee said:
I can tell you what I made. League fees were $5 per person, per week. My cut was $1 ($5 per team...another $5 went to APA Corporate). I was upfront about it, and my players thought it was fair...nobody *****ed, and everybody had fun. The most I ever had was <100 teams, so nobody was getting rich, but $500/wk 20 yrs ago in MT wasn't bad for a side job running the league. Some LO's are making 20x that, but they have 1000+ teams. Still not enough for all the headaches and crybabies, imo. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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OK, good info. Where did the other $15 from the team go ??
 
KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Donny Lutz said:
Great points. I tried to get an ACS league going where I live, but got limited support from the pool community. They were sold on the "win a free trip to Vegas" myth* and the Budweiser/APA connection.

*One must invest at least two seasons of APA fees just for the "chance" of winning that free trip.
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Yeah, it's tough to break... they are finally starting a few acs leagues where apa use to have a strong hold. And now that they know that acs has state and national tourneys, and everyone is free to compete, plus 90% of the money goes back to the teams.

Thus, if the teams finishing at the top, and even a few in the middle, kept putting that money aside for 1 or 2 years, it would pay for the trip to Vegas to attend the acs tourney.

But the state tourney is very inexpensive, and lucky for me it's only a 1/2 mile from my house this year :)
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
RJ...Do you really believe running a pool league is free? I had five league areas spread out over 90,000 square miles (yep, I said 90K). Some went to paybacks, some went to administrative costs, some went to travel funds to send teams to Vegas, some went to end of session playoff prize funds, some went to end of year banquets, some went to trophies and other prizes...etc.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

ChicagoRJ said:
OK, good info. Where did the other $15 from the team go ??
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