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Matching different shaft and butt joints
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cjweaver13
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Matching different shaft and butt joints - 06-30-2015, 08:05 AM

My play cue is a 5/16x18 designed for piloted shafts. Can I use flat face shafts on it (granted there will an air gap)? Also Some of the shafts I want to try are only 5/16x14. Could I use these safely as long as the butt has the longer thread female end? I'm also curious if anybody is currently playing with a slightly different joint match-up. Thanks!
  
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06-30-2015, 08:24 AM

You can use non-piloted shafts on a butt that is designed for piloted shafts as long as the thread is the same like 5/16- 18 to 5/16-18 but you cannot use a 5/16-14 shaft on a 5/16- 18 pin. There are cross thread extensions you can get that will allow you to use different thread types together but it will make the cue longer by at least 2 inches. The fit like an adapter between the shaft and existing joint pin. I got a set that did 5/16-14 Female to 3/8-10 male and a set that did 3/8 - 10 female to 5/16-14. I can use just about any shaft I have from almost any cue I have and I can join them together to get a 5 inch extension for 5/16-14 or 3/8-10. Pretty cool stuff. I got my sets made by AZB member: Newsheriffintwn. He was great to deal with and the products work great.

DO NOT try a 5/16-14 shaft on a 5/16-18 pin as the pin or shaft will get damaged/cross threaded.


Good shooting to you!

Kevin

Last edited by pooln8r; 06-30-2015 at 08:28 AM.
  
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06-30-2015, 08:49 AM

You're certainly safe to use flat faced shafts of the same joint screw thread on piloted cues. It's likely that you won't even notice the difference.

But, a 5/16-14 and 5/16-18 joint thread and pin are completely different and won't interchange.


Royce


Royce Bunnell (RBC) unfortunately passed away on November 26th 2015. He is dearly missed by the OB family.

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06-30-2015, 08:54 AM




On most cues, the pilot serves no purpose.
  
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Cues
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Cues - 06-30-2015, 08:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by poolguy4u View Post



On most cues, the pilot serves no purpose.
Can I ask what cues it does serve a purpose on.


Personally I thought if the pin was a free floating pin then the piloted joint would be one of the best .

I prefer a 3/8 x 10 flat face personally .


MMike
  
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06-30-2015, 09:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by poolguy4u View Post



On most cues, the pilot serves no purpose.
Well not exactly .. with a piloted joint you can easily match a shaft to a butt perfectly.

The shaft OD is a constant and the centering of the insert is more precise.

No need to send in your butt to have a new shaft made, as well as being able to order a pre made off brand shaft that will fit perfectly.

Schon says that their piloted brass insert is one of the "secrets" behind their amazing hit ... and we can all take that for what it's worth...


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06-30-2015, 09:14 AM

as far as air gap, the thread to thread joint is not air tight. nor is the brass insert that it sits in. so I wouldn't worry about that.


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06-30-2015, 05:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mortuarymike-nv View Post
Can I ask what cues it does serve a purpose on.

The idea is that the pilot helps the pin locate the center plus increase the joint's surface area which helps transfer more energy from piece to piece........theoretically. Mike Lambros made the Ultra Joint which has a much larger pilot and very close tolerances so basically the joint is air tight and the pilot makes full contact to transfer all of the energy possible.......theoretically. Here is a pic:
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06-30-2015, 05:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuji-whopper View Post
Mike Lambros made the Ultra Joint which has a much larger pilot and very close tolerances so basically the joint is air tight and the pilot makes full contact to transfer all of the energy possible.......theoretically. Here is a pic:
I love this joint, a solution to a problem that didn't exist. The 3/8x10 Modified joint (flat-faced) transfers energy beautifully.


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06-30-2015, 07:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mortuarymike-nv View Post
Can I ask what cues it does serve a purpose on.


Personally I thought if the pin was a free floating pin then the piloted joint would be one of the best .

I prefer a 3/8 x 10 flat face personally .


Serves a purpose on a Lambros Cue.
  
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06-30-2015, 07:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Agent 99 View Post
Well not exactly .. with a piloted joint you can easily match a shaft to a butt perfectly.

The shaft OD is a constant and the centering of the insert is more precise.

No need to send in your butt to have a new shaft made, as well as being able to order a pre made off brand shaft that will fit perfectly.

Schon says that their piloted brass insert is one of the "secrets" behind their amazing hit ... and we can all take that for what it's worth...



Oh...that makes no sense.
  
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Just mechanics
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Just mechanics - 07-01-2015, 06:10 AM

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Originally Posted by poolguy4u View Post


Serves a purpose on a Lambros Cue.
LOL Not to get this off on the wrong foot on this topic.


The pilot is a guide to position the shaft ................................nothing else

The bolt on something that is piloted, is to hold the two pieces together and not to align.


On a cue that has a piloted shaft the pin is not free floating it is fixed.
Because the pin is fixed it also align the shaft.
The pilot is also aligning the shaft too and the pilots soul purpose is to only align the shaft.

Why do you need the fixed pin and the pilot system to align the shaft ?

Because the pin is fixed or not movable and the pilot system isn't going to move either I don't see how its possible that the pin and the piloted joint don't actually create stress between the two alignment systems .

I don't know how many of you guys have ever Dialed in a bell housing.
But it only has one aligning system and that is the pilot dowels .
The bolts hold the housing in place and the dowel pins guild the housing into its proper place ....


MMike
  
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07-01-2015, 08:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by poolguy4u View Post



Oh...that makes no sense.
Sure it does ... what about it do you not understand?


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07-01-2015, 08:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mortuarymike-nv View Post
LOL Not to get this off on the wrong foot on this topic.


The pilot is a guide to position the shaft ................................nothing else

The bolt on something that is piloted, is to hold the two pieces together and not to align.


On a cue that has a piloted shaft the pin is not free floating it is fixed.
Because the pin is fixed it also align the shaft.
The pilot is also aligning the shaft too and the pilots soul purpose is to only align the shaft.

Why do you need the fixed pin and the pilot system to align the shaft ?

Because the pin is fixed or not movable and the pilot system isn't going to move either I don't see how its possible that the pin and the piloted joint don't actually create stress between the two alignment systems .

I don't know how many of you guys have ever Dialed in a bell housing.
But it only has one aligning system and that is the pilot dowels .
The bolts hold the housing in place and the dowel pins guild the housing into its proper place ....
This isn't completely correct.

If the tolerances on the pilot are correct and the clearance of the threads is sufficient, the pilot will certainly act as a portion of the alignment feature.

The problem is, that cuemakers and their customers seem to think that a cue should be hard to screw together from the first turn to the last. For some reason they think that a too-tight fit between the pin and the female threads is a good thing. These people are either pandering or ignorant about thread fit and constraining of systems...or they just don't care.
  
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Piloted shafts
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Piloted shafts - 07-01-2015, 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCorazonFrio View Post
This isn't completely correct.

If the tolerances on the pilot are correct and the clearance of the threads is sufficient, the pilot will certainly act as a portion of the alignment feature.

The problem is, that cuemakers and their customers seem to think that a cue should be hard to screw together from the first turn to the last. For some reason they think that a too-tight fit between the pin and the female threads is a good thing. These people are either pandering or ignorant about thread fit and constraining of systems...or they just don't care.
Well it would be nice if we were sitting down together discussing this over a glass of ice tea.
It would be allot easier to explain.

All of my big pin cues that are wood to wood screws, screw on friction free.

I am just a want a be cue maker but I prefer big pin cues 3/8 x 10 .. 3/8 x 11 is the hit I like .

Anyway I don't want to get this off topic But I have seen a ton of cheaper cues with piloted joints and rarely are they straight ....
A very un fair and untrue statement when it concerns higher end cues that are piloted joint.



MMike
  
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