Ferrule question, capped or uncapped

Capped ferrules are stronger because of the cap, and with the decline in structural integrity with today's materials, it may be a more viable option than ever. The one thing I never did like about capped ferrules is that the cue takes on the feel of the material being used, and I personally prefer to let the cue be defined by the woods. Granted, that difference can be so minimal that it doesn't even matter, but with some materials it can be pretty obvious.

For instance, the way I used to do my ferrules was 3/8-10 non-capped. I could use pretty much any material and the difference in feel and playability was almost non existent. PVC hit just as hard as a high quality melamine. My preferred material was melamine, but the manufacturer quit producing the stuff I used. I switched to the next best thing, but it's been a disaster with ferrules cracking. Basically I had to change my method because there's no longer a material that can withstand the abuse of normal play. What I did was change the thread pattern and slightly thin the diameter of the tenon. I'm in process of experimenting, comparing capped with a stepped down through tenon, with the same material. I honestly cannot tell the difference. That brings me to the conclusion that I have always known, anyway, which is that the less material you have in the ferrule, the more natural the cue will play. The more material present, the more the cue will take on the play characteristics of the material. Not a good spot to be in for me, but I have just about gotten it all worked out. The cues are hitting the way I like again. Pretty much the only difference now is that my new material isn't quite as frosty white as the melamine I used to get.

An uncapped ferrule tends to give the hit more feel.... maybe a crisper feel... A capped ferrule softens the hit.

Threaded ferrules are weaker and will split or crack easier than a tubular ferrule....... I only thread phenolic break ferrules and never ferrules for a playing cue........ I use 5 min epoxy and have never had one come loose or fall off..........

Kim

nineballsafety8 said:

Thank you Mr. Crips, your answers are always well thought out and informative. My only question is whether or not you agree with my statement that the only reason to use a capped ferrule would be to add the strength necessary for it to be durable in a playability. I would think that if the material could withstand being uncapped, that it would be better than being capped... I hope what I am trying to say makes sense here.

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That's my belief and the way I prefer to use ferrules. But like I said, it's becoming increasingly difficult due to modern materials lacking strength. And that's really only an issue with thin wall ferrules.

As for better? That's not really the case. Folks I know who use capped ferrules do it not so much for strength but for consistency. If you use the same ferrule material with the typical 5/16-18 threaded/capped ferrule design, and the same tips, then your cues will all hit very similar, regardless of woods used. My opinion, based on my own experience, is that while that system works very well for creating a level of consistency, it also limits the cue maker to creating a cue that can only hit & play as well as the material & tip he's using. That said, there are a lot of legendary cue makers that have depended on that system for decades, so my opinion is only relevant to me. Truth be told, cues have such a broad spectrum of dynamics that it's impossible to set any rule in stone. Every time you think you know something, you encounter a cue that turns that belief upside down. In the end all we can do is find what works best for us, and try our best no to be so closed minded that we can't evolve.

I'm not sure what threading a ferrule has to do with strength. A 3/8" threaded ferrule will actually have more meat than a 3/8" bore ferrule.

It's interesting that you would know the difference btwn 'stupidity' and 'ignorance'.
I myself am ignorant on many topics but I try not to be stupid about it.
Ignorant merely means that you don't know.
Stupidity means that you know but just chose to do otherwise.
But that's not what you're here for. Let's talk ferrules.

You are correct in that a capped ferrule is designed to reinforce itself.
The cap is suppose to keep the ferrule from 'spreading'.
Consider that as a tip starts to mushroom out, it wants to take the ferrule it's glued to with it.
Many an ivory ferrule has failed due to this phenomenon, some were even capped.
Non-ivory ferrules seem to holdup better, even uncapped.
I, like you, prefer the uncapped ferrule for the same reason(s) you gave.
I seek the purity of hit that an uncapped ferrule provides.
I also use an oversize tenon diameter to allow better transfer of resonance.
Today's linen based ferrule mtrls are the nuts; LBM, Aegis, Ivorine-3, all outstanding.
About the only drawback is the occasional contaminant that finds it's way into the resin.
Strong as the hubs of hell, relatively light and a great compliment to the hit of any cue.
Comparatively speaking, you are correct. Ivory is a crappy ferrule mtrl. by today's standards.

Ferrule mtrls weigh more than wood, unless the ferrule itself is also wood, ie, OB1.
Adding extra wght. to the tip end of a shaft is not moving closer to L/D.
Capped ferrules weigh more than uncapped. Thin-wall thru ferrules weigh even less.

HTHs, KJ

PS, BTW dude, I just noticed that you are 5" taller than me and out-weigh me by 100 lbs.
I hope my answer meets with your approval. Lol

KJ Cues said:

It's interesting that you would know the difference btwn 'stupidity' and 'ignorance'.
I myself am ignorant on many topics but I try not to be stupid about it.
Ignorant merely means that you don't know.
Stupidity means that you know but just chose to do otherwise.
But that's not what you're here for. Let's talk ferrules.

You are correct in that a capped ferrule is designed to reinforce itself.
The cap is suppose to keep the ferrule from 'spreading'.
Consider that as a tip starts to mushroom out, it wants to take the ferrule it's glued to with it.
Many an ivory ferrule has failed due to this phenomenon, some were even capped.
Non-ivory ferrules seem to holdup better, even uncapped.
I, like you, prefer the uncapped ferrule for the same reason(s) you gave.
I seek the purity of hit that an uncapped ferrule provides.
I also use an oversize tenon diameter to allow better transfer of resonance.
Today's linen based ferrule mtrls are the nuts; LBM, Aegis, Ivorine-3, all outstanding.
About the only drawback is the occasional contaminant that finds it's way into the resin.
Strong as the hubs of hell, relatively light and a great compliment to the hit of any cue.
Comparatively speaking, you are correct. Ivory is a crappy ferrule mtrl. by today's standards.

Ferrule mtrls weigh more than wood, unless the ferrule itself is also wood, ie, OB1.
Adding extra wght. to the tip end of a shaft is not moving closer to L/D.
Capped ferrules weigh more than uncapped. Thin-wall thru ferrules weigh even less.

HTHs, KJ

PS, BTW dude, I just noticed that you are 5" taller than me and out-weigh me by 100 lbs.
I hope my answer meets with your approval. Lol

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The road already traveled.
.350" 18tpi by 3/4 long.
Linen epoxy is da nuts.

I am convinced cue makers' preference is mostly due to their tooling and processes more than any other reasons.

JoeyInCali said:

The road already traveled.
.350" 18tpi by 3/4 long.
Linen epoxy is da nuts.

I am convinced cue makers' preference is mostly due to their tooling and processes more than any other reasons.

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I'm convinced that hit is subjective and that the processes taken are because that's what they like. Personal preference seems a little bit lost in your statements sometimes.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here & say I don't think hit is as subjective as is made out to be. Preference of hard vs. soft, stiff vs. whippy, most certainly apply to subjectivity. However, purity of hit trumps all.

Purity of hit by my definition is how efficiently the power flows through the cue given a certain power of stroke. Essentially, it's the continuity of the cue, the cue's ability to transmit power into the cue ball. Every glue gap, soft or energy absorbing wood, etc. reduce the continuity. This is why house cues & full splices often play & feel great, because it's solid mass from end to end with no breaks or soft spots. They're also made from straight grain woods that are generally considered to be tone woods, which naturally transfer energy more efficiently. The more pure the hit, the less work and power the player has to put into the stroke. That's universal among players, regardless of their preferences on hard vs soft or stiff vs. whippy.

What that all has to do with ferrules is that often times a cue maker can do everything exactly correct, create an awesome cue, then crap out on the ferrule & ruin what could have been an amazing cue. No matter which method you choose to install the ferrule, do it in a precise and very secured manner that won't interfere with the flow of energy through the cue. That energy is directly responsible for moving the cue ball. IMO, if a cue has good continuity, it doesn't matter what method was used to install the ferrule. If it works, it works.

Hits 'em Hard said:

I'm convinced that hit is subjective and that the processes taken are because that's what they like. Personal preference seems a little bit lost in your statements sometimes.

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If you built cues, you would understand his statement more.

Hits 'em Hard said:

I'm convinced that hit is subjective and that the processes taken are because that's what they like. Personal preference seems a little bit lost in your statements sometimes.

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Well, let us know how you install yours and what material ?
What kind of lathe you and tooling ?

qbilder said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here & say I don't think hit is as subjective as is made out to be. Preference of hard vs. soft, stiff vs. whippy, most certainly apply to subjectivity. However, purity of hit trumps all.

Purity of hit by my definition is how efficiently the power flows through the cue given a certain power of stroke. Essentially, it's the continuity of the cue, the cue's ability to transmit power into the cue ball. Every glue gap, soft or energy absorbing wood, etc. reduce the continuity. This is why house cues & full splices often play & feel great, because it's solid mass from end to end with no breaks or soft spots. They're also made from straight grain woods that are generally considered to be tone woods, which naturally transfer energy more efficiently. The more pure the hit, the less work and power the player has to put into the stroke. That's universal among players, regardless of their preferences on hard vs soft or stiff vs. whippy.

What that all has to do with ferrules is that often times a cue maker can do everything exactly correct, create an awesome cue, then crap out on the ferrule & ruin what could have been an amazing cue. No matter which method you choose to install the ferrule, do it in a precise and very secured manner that won't interfere with the flow of energy through the cue. That energy is directly responsible for moving the cue ball. IMO, if a cue has good continuity, it doesn't matter what method was used to install the ferrule. If it works, it works.

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Thanks for the great posts. I just want to ask something about the energy transfer bit. What would be the benefit of using a traditional ferrule compared to something like a thin G10 plate similar to what Mezz uses on their PB Pro break cue? All things being equal I would think the thin plate would have a much better energy transfer and truer feel to it.

whammo57 said:

An uncapped ferrule tends to give the hit more feel.... maybe a crisper feel... A capped ferrule softens the hit.

Threaded ferrules are weaker and will split or crack easier than a tubular ferrule....... I only thread phenolic break ferrules and never ferrules for a playing cue........ I use 5 min epoxy and have never had one come loose or fall off..........

Kim

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In testing my new shafts with a through ferrule/pad combo the hit was dead. Went to a capped ferrule.... all the feel came back. Things are not always what they seem.

bdcues said:

In testing my new shafts with a through ferrule/pad combo the hit was dead. Went to a capped ferrule.... all the feel came back. Things are not always what they seem.

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I don't doubt what you say but I have had the exact opposite experience.


Kim

nineballsafety8 said:

So I was just curious, and this is mostly out of ignorancy (not stupidity), but is there really an advantage to using a capped ferrule over an uncapped ferrule? The only reason that I could think of would be materials such as Ivory that do not have the structural integrity to stand up to being used uncapped. Which in my eyes (please no one get offended here) lends itself to being a crappy ferrule material anyway.

If the purpose of the ferrule is to protect the shaft, would you not want exposure to the shaft for transfer of energy, that an uncapped ferrule offers?

I know that in my experience, I have always preferred the hit of cues with uncapped ferrules vs capped, but was wondering if there was a true benefit, or whether it is an attempt to make a less than ideal ferrule material more suited for its purpose.

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I've been on both sides of the fence.
This matter has been argued over a million times.
Too many things to argue over.

First, what other makers have found out for themselves might have had to do with their processes and material.
Let's take someone with a 3-jaw or 4-jaw Taig lathe . Would that person want to make threaded melamine ferrules on that lathe? Try tapping melamine ferrule on a 6-jaw 8" Bison chuck. That sucker is still tough. Now, try tapping on a mini lathe with aluminum jaws.
Now, would you tap a capped ferrule on that same lathe? You'll have to use three taps to get really good threads that end near the bottom of the cap.
K, now. let's say you accomplished that .
Now, you're gonna thread your tenon for that ferrule. Throw away the tap/drill size chart. You're not gonna use a thread die on 5/16 to go on a tapped 5/16 18 ferrule. You'll mangle the threads. You will have to over cut that tenon down to .285" max.
Now, let's say you epoxy that capped 5/16 18 ferrule ( even after market one ) with a hard epoxy.
How much epoxy is inside that ferrule ? You think that will influence the deflection and hit a little ? Or maybe a lot ?

Capped or no cap? Do you really think leather sitting on a small exposed wood ( about 5/16 to 3/8 diameter ) would make that tip transfer resonance better ?
What happens when you draw or apply sidespin? More of ferrule material hit there ?

Processes ? Oh, boy, here come the bulls out of the gate .
One maker likes to install his ferrules when his shafts are at final size. No probs.
One maker likes to install his ferrules when the shafts are at 13.25 . Hmm, keep the center hole or not? Whack it off and install a capped ferrule?
Hmm, what it someone wants a 30" shaft ? 29.5". Hmm, should he start his joint collar a little forward for the regular length shafts?

Hit? Are SW world famous for their hit ? Long through ferrules installed on white glue ?
Is the Scruggs sneaky one of the holy grail of great hitting cues ? Capped 1" Aegis ferrules ?
Predator shafts ? Capped soft material ?

p.s.
Convince Samsara to change their process. lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6g2fgu-ZWQ

branpureza said:

Thanks for the great posts. I just want to ask something about the energy transfer bit. What would be the benefit of using a traditional ferrule compared to something like a thin G10 plate similar to what Mezz uses on their PB Pro break cue? All things being equal I would think the thin plate would have a much better energy transfer and truer feel to it.

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To be honest, I don't think it matters. IMO, what matters is solid construction void of air pockets and loose fits. Once you accomplish that, you have done as well as you can. Beyond this and it becomes a matter of which materials to choose and where to put them. Capped, uncapped, long, short, doesn't make as much difference as the quality of your work. It's not how you do it as much as how well you do it.

I can thead ferrules and tenons on my hightower lathe..... they look and work just fine.................

Kim

Hi,

If you take mill spec. A 10 steel dowels that are made to an exacting standard and the metal is controlled to the enth degree at the foundry you will find:

When put into a controled lab environment connected to a dual trace oscilloscope and a percision tunable frequency generator that those A10 dowels will indicate almost identical patterns. Very very close!

Now try that with wood. Chop suey!!!

That's why Bob and Kim who are both very intelligent observers have different experiences.

Claims to garner a specific feel or hit is something that a cue maker can only steer a direction in a very generalized fashion. The selection of wood species being the number one factor. Joint and ferrule materials, tip, glues ect. Have their effect for sure as does the construction method and tolerances held by the CM.

One thing I have learned is that there are no apples to apple comparisons in building cues because it is the combination of the permutations of the parts and methods that determine the whole. Plus no two pieces of wood are identical.

Capped or non capped ferrules have their own effect but there are many voices in an orchestration.

JMO as a Scum bag, LOL

Rick

branpureza said:

Thanks for the great posts. I just want to ask something about the energy transfer bit. What would be the benefit of using a traditional ferrule compared to something like a thin G10 plate similar to what Mezz uses on their PB Pro break cue? All things being equal I would think the thin plate would have a much better energy transfer and truer feel to it.

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Ivory ferrules don't come thin yet so many love them for their feel.
Nothing feels like a capped ivory ferrule imo. If it were lighter , more durable and legal, it'd be perfect.
G-10 is just about the worst ferrule material there is . Relatively heavy and stiff compared to other ferrules ( melamine is G-9 and phenolics are G-7 ).