‎8-Ball (WPA) vs 9-Ball - 100 game experiment.

[telinoz]

This is pure exercise in seeing what rules of Pool produce the correct result for a stronger player vs a weaker player.
Meaning, which one ensures the most skilled player wins.

Most people would have heard of Virtual Pool, #3 came out with best player on the game being Curly who breaks and runs and doesn't miss much at all.
I've been playing this game for 15 years or so on PC and now Phone and it is the most accurate physics model and control method for playing to date.
So, it is a good platform to try a controlled experiment for Pool games as the conditions are the same, the opponent plays the same, no issues with technique or cueing and the only thing you have to do right is shot selection via pattern selection and positional play. Pace/spin on cueball being the last control element.
I chose to it this way rather then real table and opponent as that adds more variables and would detract from a pure rule vs rule experiment.

100 Games of 9-Ball - I won 65 out of 100
100 Games of 8-Ball - I won 85 out of 100
Played in race to 5 sessions, alternating between 8-Ball and 9-Ball every 2 sets (meaning every time a 2x race to 5 was over) to keep things consistent as I played this out over 2 months when I had spare time.

Conclusion is that 9-Ball has a much bigger element of luck in it, the table is more open (space) to make positional play easier, there is no call shot again adding more luck to the game, you can win a game by potting 1 ball.
Basically 9-Ball is inferior to 8-Ball with regards to skilled player more likely to win.

I had noticed this trend in real play over many years, some players in League or tournaments would NEVER win a race to 3 or 5 set off me but at 9-Ball they sometimes did due some massive luck (mostly missing intended pocket but knocking something else in, or a tough table layout when I made 7 of 9 balls but missed a very hard shot to watch them knock in 2 balls...)

8-Ball played well by top players is great to watch, I would love to see more money at World level and more 8-Ball played to determine 'Pool' World Champion over 9-Ball.

I've satisfied my curiosity now as I don't think there is a better way of proving the differences between the games then the controlled experiment I just did.

Unless anyone here has another idea or wishes to discuss this?

 

[lastdimetaker]

I think your being hustled, curly just let u win those games so u would raise the bet. I think the best way to determine a pool world champion is to play your video game. After all you just used it to prove 9 ball is an inferior game to 8ball.

 

[dr9ball]

I have to say thank you to the OP for this thread and the logic provided in their assertion that 8 ball is superior to 9 ball. I needed a good laugh.

Free advice for you here: Play whatever game YOU enjoy, the way you enjoy it, be it on the computer or on a real pool table and don't feel like everyone else has to agree with you. They don't and they won't.

 

[Eddie May]

The are 100% different games..... 9 ball is a shot makers game (wonder why Earl and Shane are top top notch at this game?!)...

1 pocket I feel is true best overall game to determine pool prowess in all facists.

But if you really want to know who the best players in the world are go ahead and look at the DCC all around winners.

Just because YOU do not play 9 ball well does not mean its a "more luck" game than 8 ball. There is a small amount of luck in both games.

Using "Oh I ran 7 of 9 balls" excuses is stupid... Learn to play safe earlier in the rack in order to be able to break out the problem balls.

Also in 8 ball when someone dogs a ball and freeze there OB ball on one of your balls to get out, this is not luck?!

I appreciate your time spent with your experiment, but you are looking at things the WRONG way.

 

[CreeDo]

I don't agree with your testing necessarily (who knows what AI routines are built into this game? It's not the same as playing a real human) but I agree that 9b has a little more luck in it.

There are several ways a player can screw up and get away with murder in 9b:

-Fluke a ball into the wrong pocket (the good old Z-bank)
-Miss the intended shot but combo/carom in something else
-Miss but hook the cue ball (this can happen in 8b but is much more likely in 9)

And there are a few ways a player can win that IMO is not deserved, or is too easy.
-9b on the break
-His opponent rattles the 8 or 9 and he basically wins from the chair
-Early 9b combo happens to line up just right

There are 2 ways a player can get lucky in 8b that don't exist in 9b:
- blow your position completely, but recover by just shooting something else
- get one group that's clearly easier than the other

Both are good games, and in the long haul the better player will still win.
But Dr. points out, you don't need to come up with reasons to justify liking 8b. People can argue all day about the merits of one game vs. the other, but nobody can argue when you say "I like 8b more".

 

[RunoutJJ]

Well from what I understand this tournament is going to be played on 9' snooker tzbles with regular sized pool balls!! Yeah buddy!! Only the rein supreme players will make it to the top. My money is on Daz to take this one down :thumbup2:

 

[BigFish]

I've been playing pool for over 45 years and my observation is that to the great world class players like SVB, Efren, Earl, Alex, etc., it doesn't make a difference what game they play, they are going to excell. But, when you drop down to the shortstop level or good local players, the good eight ball players are also probably good nine ball player, but it doesn't hold true in reverse. The good nine ball player isn't necessarily a good eight ball player. I believe the reason for this is the nine ball specialists are used to the pattern being dictated to them by the lay of the balls. You have to go from 1 to 2 to 3 .... In eight ball you have to determine your own pattern. From what I've observed, this seems to be the nine ball specialists downfall, so their reaction is to debase and deride the game of eight ball in defense of their inadequacy.

 

[RunoutJJ]

I've been playing pool for over 45 years and my observation is that to the great world class players like SVB, Efren, Earl, Alex, etc., it doesn't make a difference what game they play, they are going to excell. But, when you drop down to the shortstop level or good local players, the good eight ball players are also probably good nine ball player, but it doesn't hold true in reverse. The good nine ball player isn't necessarily a good eight ball player. I believe the reason for this is the nine ball specialists are used to the pattern being dictated to them by the lay of the balls. You have to go from 1 to 2 to 3 .... In eight ball you have to determine your own pattern. From what I've observed, this seems to be the nine ball specialists downfall, so their reaction is to debase and deride the game of eight ball in defense of their inadequacy.

Beg to differ on this one. If you are a strong 9 ball player then your 8 ball game is just as strong as the best 8 ball players that don't play 9 ball. In 9 ball you plan to break up clusters or moves balls frozen close to the sides etc.. You may only get one MAYBE two chances to break out or move balls as in 8 ball have up to 4 or more chances. You see in 8 ball you can play postion for more than one ball off of a cluster break where as in 9 ball you have just one. I can't count how many times I've played a seasoned 8 ball player and watch them leave themselves rough after a planned break out.

Another advantage that 9 ball players have is the "hit" factor or kicks and banks!! In 9 ball there will be many more times where you can't see your "on" ball and you are forced to kick a long rail just to hit it. Safeties in 8 ball can be very strong but not as strong as a 9 ball safe.

Overall I think a well seasoned 9 ball player has the upper hand in the game of 8 ball. Any 8 ball player that thinks 9 ball is a joke or a luck game is what you would call a fish... You should poke hard at his ego and when the time is right make his post everything to prove his point and then smoke him!! Afterwards offered some paid lesson in 8.... Oh wait... You just gave him a paid lesson :lol:

 

[RunoutJJ]

To add to the 1-2-3 pattern like play you pointed out.... Yeah when playing 8 ball the pattern play is very easy to see and your room for error is much greater than 9 ball. So that being said you could still get out if you play out of line the whole game. In 9 ball the more out of line you get the shorter your run will be. Especially on the tougher equipment....

 

[BigFish]

Like I said, the 9 ball specialists have to come up with lame excuses to ridicule 8 ball. You don't believe 8 ball players ever have to kick or bank? It's probably done much more in 8 ball, because you may not have a place to duck. And as to playing safeties, it is easy to hide from one ball in nine ball, whereas you may have to hide from 7 balls in eight ball. Personnally, I have never found 9 ball as challenging as 8 ball or one pocket. 9 ball is just big break and connect the dots. Anybody with the most basic of ball pocketing and cue ball position skills can do well.

 

[Eddie May]

Beg to differ on this one. If you are a strong 9 ball player then your 8 ball game is just as strong as the best 8 ball players that don't play 9 ball. In 9 ball you plan to break up clusters or moves balls frozen close to the sides etc.. You may only get one MAYBE two chances to break out or move balls as in 8 ball have up to 4 or more chances. You see in 8 ball you can play postion for more than one ball off of a cluster break where as in 9 ball you have just one. I can't count how many times I've played a seasoned 8 ball player and watch them leave themselves rough after a planned break out.

Another advantage that 9 ball players have is the "hit" factor or kicks and banks!! In 9 ball there will be many more times where you can't see your "on" ball and you are forced to kick a long rail just to hit it. Safeties in 8 ball can be very strong but not as strong as a 9 ball safe.

Overall I think a well seasoned 9 ball player has the upper hand in the game of 8 ball. Any 8 ball player that thinks 9 ball is a joke or a luck game is what you would call a fish... You should poke hard at his ego and when the time is right make his post everything to prove his point and then smoke him!! Afterwards offered some paid lesson in 8.... Oh wait... You just gave him a paid lesson :lol:

Like I said, the 9 ball specialists have to come up with lame excuses to ridicule 8 ball. You don't believe 8 ball players ever have to kick or bank? It's probably done much more in 8 ball, because you may not have a place to duck. And as to playing safeties, it is easy to hide from one ball in nine ball, whereas you may have to hide from 7 balls in eight ball. Personnally, I have never found 9 ball as challenging as 8 ball or one pocket. 9 ball is just big break and connect the dots. Anybody with the most basic of ball pocketing and cue ball position skills can do well.

Will you 2 shut it... They are completely different games and both have different things that bring strengths and weaknesses out of players. Stop trying to compare them.... Thats like saying playing defense on a football team is better than playing offense... Its all based upon personal opinion.

 

[CreeDo]

Will you 2 shut it... They are completely different games and both have different things that bring strengths and weaknesses out of players. Stop trying to compare them.... Thats like saying playing defense on a football team is better than playing offense... Its all based upon personal opinion.

And people are allowed to express that opinion, that's what the forum's for.

I don't know if you pull this shit in real life, but telling people on the forum to stop talking is never ever going to work. If you can't stand to see people argue about this sort of thing, you probably should get off the internet entirely before you have a seizure.

 

[TSW]

This doesn't prove anything. Maybe the AI player is better at 9 ball than 8 ball. Maybe YOU are better at 8 ball pattern play than 9 ball.

Anyway, it's commonly accepted that there is a relatively high degree of luck in Texas Express 9 ball. If you are looking for the game that is best able to discern the better player, why not look outside of 9 ball and 8 ball? A long race of straight pool will have less luck than either 9 ball or 8 ball. The same can be said for a long race of 3 cushion billiards. Of course, then you're getting into different skill sets altogether.

 

[Eddie May]

And people are allowed to express that opinion, that's what the forum's for.

I don't know if you pull this shit in real life, but telling people on the forum to stop talking is never ever going to work. If you can't stand to see people argue about this sort of thing, you probably should get off the internet entirely before you have a seizure.

This is a topic that I am sure has been debated 10,000 times on these forums and a topic that needs no debate.... There is no answer to this... Both games are a strong contest of pool skills in there own ways. To say you like one more than the other is perfectly acceptable, but to try and say one game is more challenging or skillful that the other is just dumb...

 

[telinoz]

Interesting feedback in most cases.
I also play Snooker as well and consider that harder then any pool game, but the point was not to try and work out what game was harder but which rule set allows more degree of luck to play it's part.
If you want to play a very hard game go and try 3-cushion carom.

I play 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball and used to play WEPF 2-shot 8-Ball when I lived in UK and yes all games have their appeal and each can be enjoyed. I do like playing Cuesports in general so that was not an issue of preference or what I like the most.
It was bugging me in the back of my brain that 9-Ball just seemed to have rules that tried to even out mismatched skill levels.
I also was bugged over many years of playing both games with some players beating me who could not at 8-Ball or Snooker, on a 7ft table it is even worse for 9-Ball vs 9ft table.

The AI in that game btw for shot making and selection showed no difference at all, even when you switch over to straight pool it still makes all the same shots and breaks out balls etc.

Like people have said, it's a debate that will go on for a long time I just wanted to try something different with less variables to run a controlled experiment.

I wonder though, if 9-Ball became a call shot game I think it would balance out to be more inline with 8-Ball and the other elements that make parts of 9-Ball tougher then 8-Ball would make it on par.
I do see more issues below professional level, but as that accounts for 99.9% of all the players in the World then the rules should be good for the masses.

Should 9-Ball be a call shot game?