10 ball push out in NAPA

Rickhem

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A question came up the other night in a game of 10 ball (NAPA rules) about the push out. Player A broke dry, Player B then wanted to know if he could hit another ball besides the one ball, and have it still be a legal push. Much discussion followed.

Here is the rule as per the current NAPA rules:
The shooter who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break, may play a push out in an attempt to move the cue ball into a better position for the option that follows. On a push out, the cue ball is not required to contact any object ball nor any cushion, however, all other foul rules still apply. The shooter must announce his intention of playing a push out before the shot, or the shot is considered to be a normal shot. Any ball pocketed on a push out does not count and remains pocketed except for the 10-ball. Following a legal push out, the incoming shooter is permitted to shoot from that position or return the shot to the shooter that pushed out. A push out is not considered to be a foul as long as no other rule is violated. An illegal push out is penalized according to the type of foul committed. After a shooter scratches on the break shot, the incoming shooter cannot play a push out.

So the question was if Player B can have the cue tap another ball, not the one ball, and call that a legal push out? One side says it is good, but the argument against that was that the rule says "all other foul rules still apply", so contacting the wrong ball first would still be a foul.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"On a push out, the cue ball is not required to contact any object ball nor any cushion"

"Not required" implies "may" The cue ball may contact any object ball...but it is not necessary to contact an object ball nor is it required to contact a rail...but it may do both.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The CB can touch any OB or multiple OB's on the the table during a push. Even the 1 ball. You can even call a push if you are straight in on the 1, hit the 1 ball first, and pocket it.
 

Deruki

Well-known member
The CB can touch any OB or multiple OB's on the the table during a push. Even the 1 ball. You can even call a push if you are straight in on the 1, hit the 1 ball first, and pocket it.

Correct, it's still the incoming player's option.

The sentence in question in the rules above is a little ambiguous.

I can fully understand why a person could interpret it as hitting another ball to be a foul. In fact that's pretty much how it reads IMO. HItting a ball not the lowest on the table is certainly in the realm of all other fouls.

Is this taken from the world standardized rules or did Napa modify it to suit them? In any regard it needs to be clarified regardless of what everyone who has been playing and knows what the rule should be. That's not what it says.
 

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve seen pros (Van Boening, etc.) hit another OB during a posh out. No foul is called. In fact, I’ve never seen a foul called during any push in 9 or 10 ball. However, rules do vary.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A question came up the other night in a game of 10 ball (NAPA rules) about the push out. Player A broke dry, Player B then wanted to know if he could hit another ball besides the one ball, and have it still be a legal push. Much discussion followed.

Here is the rule as per the current NAPA rules:
The shooter who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break, may play a push out in an attempt to move the cue ball into a better position for the option that follows. On a push out, the cue ball is not required to contact any object ball nor any cushion, however, all other foul rules still apply. The shooter must announce his intention of playing a push out before the shot, or the shot is considered to be a normal shot. Any ball pocketed on a push out does not count and remains pocketed except for the 10-ball. Following a legal push out, the incoming shooter is permitted to shoot from that position or return the shot to the shooter that pushed out. A push out is not considered to be a foul as long as no other rule is violated. An illegal push out is penalized according to the type of foul committed. After a shooter scratches on the break shot, the incoming shooter cannot play a push out.

So the question was if Player B can have the cue tap another ball, not the one ball, and call that a legal push out? One side says it is good, but the argument against that was that the rule says "all other foul rules still apply", so contacting the wrong ball first would still be a foul.

The all other foul rules apply meaning you can't foul the cueball by double-hitting it or hitting it into a pocket or off a table, or rake the balls with your hands (unsportsmanlike foul), things like that. The cueball contact with another ball does not apply as a rule during a push-out, just like in 9 ball. Basically if you make a legal hit on the cueball with your tip in a normal stoke, there are no fouls for hitting the wrong ball or no balls or pocketing a ball. This is a standard push-out rule and I've never seen it modified to where you can't hit any object ball past the lowest number.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A question came up the other night in a game of 10 ball (NAPA rules) about the push out. Player A broke dry, Player B then wanted to know if he could hit another ball besides the one ball, and have it still be a legal push. Much discussion followed.

Here is the rule as per the current NAPA rules:
The shooter who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break, may play a push out in an attempt to move the cue ball into a better position for the option that follows. On a push out, the cue ball is not required to contact any object ball nor any cushion, however, all other foul rules still apply. The shooter must announce his intention of playing a push out before the shot, or the shot is considered to be a normal shot. Any ball pocketed on a push out does not count and remains pocketed except for the 10-ball. Following a legal push out, the incoming shooter is permitted to shoot from that position or return the shot to the shooter that pushed out. A push out is not considered to be a foul as long as no other rule is violated. An illegal push out is penalized according to the type of foul committed. After a shooter scratches on the break shot, the incoming shooter cannot play a push out.

So the question was if Player B can have the cue tap another ball, not the one ball, and call that a legal push out? One side says it is good, but the argument against that was that the rule says "all other foul rules still apply", so contacting the wrong ball first would still be a foul.

The all other foul rules apply meaning you can't foul the cueball by double-hitting it or hitting it into a pocket or off a table, or rake the balls with your hands (unsportsmanlike foul), things like that. The cueball contact with another ball does not apply as a rule during a push-out, just like in 9 ball. Basically if you make a legal hit on the cueball with your tip in a normal stoke, there are no fouls for hitting the wrong ball or no balls or pocketing a ball. Maybe they can word it "the cueball does not need to do a standard legal contact with another ball" to prevent some literal interpretations.
 

Rickhem

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If playing either 9 ball or 10 ball, isn't the object ball the lowest number ball on the table? Meaning that if the one ball is still not pocketed, then that, and that alone, is the object ball. In 8 ball there are multiple object balls, since you either have solids or stripes and all of those are your object balls, but in a rotation game you only have a single specific ball to make contact with, and that alone is your object ball.

Do I have that wrong?
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes that’s correct. But during a push out immediately after the break, you can hit any ball under the sun, including the 1.
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
A question came up the other night in a game of 10 ball (NAPA rules) about the push out. Player A broke dry, Player B then wanted to know if he could hit another ball besides the one ball, and have it still be a legal push. Much discussion followed.

Here is the rule as per the current NAPA rules:
The shooter who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break, may play a push out in an attempt to move the cue ball into a better position for the option that follows. On a push out, the cue ball is not required to contact any object ball nor any cushion, however, all other foul rules still apply. The shooter must announce his intention of playing a push out before the shot, or the shot is considered to be a normal shot. Any ball pocketed on a push out does not count and remains pocketed except for the 10-ball. Following a legal push out, the incoming shooter is permitted to shoot from that position or return the shot to the shooter that pushed out. A push out is not considered to be a foul as long as no other rule is violated. An illegal push out is penalized according to the type of foul committed. After a shooter scratches on the break shot, the incoming shooter cannot play a push out.

So the question was if Player B can have the cue tap another ball, not the one ball, and call that a legal push out? One side says it is good, but the argument against that was that the rule says "all other foul rules still apply", so contacting the wrong ball first would still be a foul.
It does not matter if he hits other balls. He cant move balls around with his hand.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Correct, it's still the incoming player's option.

The sentence in question in the rules above is a little ambiguous.

I can fully understand why a person could interpret it as hitting another ball to be a foul. In fact that's pretty much how it reads IMO. HItting a ball not the lowest on the table is certainly in the realm of all other fouls.

Is this taken from the world standardized rules or did Napa modify it to suit them? In any regard it needs to be clarified regardless of what everyone who has been playing and knows what the rule should be. That's not what it says.
The WSR currently read like this:

If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a “push out” as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.

So the question becomes is any of the other fouls on the list of fouls violated by the cue ball hitting a ball. Here are all possible fouls:

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table
6.2 Wrong Ball First -- SUSPENDED
6.3 No Rail after Contact -- SUSPENDED
6.4 No Foot on Floor
6.5 Ball Driven off the Table
6.6 Touched Ball
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
6.8 Push Shot
6.9 Balls Still Moving
6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
6.13 Playing out of Turn
6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
6.15 Slow Play
6.16 Ball Rack Template Foul
6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct​

I'm pretty sure the NAPA intent was to match the effect of the WSR.
 

Deruki

Well-known member
The WSR currently read like this:

If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a “push out” as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.


I'm pretty sure the NAPA intent was to match the effect of the WSR.​


Thanks Bob

They probably wanted to abbreviate it not realizing it was long for a reason.

I can see the frustration with how they have it written.

Under the written rules of NAPA it looks like a foul to me. A lot of people here talking about what it should mean or what they understand the rules to be and they are all correct about the rest of the world however that is distinctly not what it says in that version of rules. And it is a NAPA league.​
 
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sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
I’ve seen pros (Van Boening, etc.) hit another OB during a posh out. No foul is called. In fact, I’ve never seen a foul called during any push in 9 or 10 ball. However, rules do vary.

Stick around. I've seen a player knock the cue ball into a pocket by accident on a push out in the final of a major event. I've also seen a player double hit the cue ball on a push out attempt. In each case, it's a foul.
 
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