10 ball scotch doubles question

J

Jack Fate

Active member
Situation:
If a player calls a shot but doesn’t pocket the ball in the correct pocket ( but the ball goes down or another ball get pocketed not in the called pocket)
I understand this is handled like a push out ( such as 9 ball after the break)

Now for the problem

If the incoming player passes the shot back to the other team which player shoots?

Also by the player passing does he then give up his turn after the other team shoots or does it remain his turn?


I hope this isn’t to confusing
If this was singles there wouldn’t any questions
 
There is a section in the CSI rules ( https://www.playcsipool.com/ ) for scotch doubles. There are some surprises, at least for me. For example, you may choose who breaks each rack that you break rather than continue the order from the previous rack, so one team member may break every time. The other team also gets to choose who will shoot their first shot of the rack. The CSI SD rules don't specifically address ten ball, but in a "shoot again" situation, the original shooter must shoot again.

The rules of snooker also have a section on four-handed team play (scotch doubles). They also specify that in shoot again situations, the same player must shoot, and that the team about to break may choose who will break while the seated team may choose who will shoot first for their team on their first turn after the break.

For the non-breaking team, the CSI rules are clear that they must decide their first shooter of the rack before the breaking team's first inning ends. It is not clear for snooker.
 
Thanks for that. Guess I’m going evoke house rules .
This is why I don’t like multiple rules in pool *

*As in all the different acronyms csi, bca , apa , vnea & bar just to name a few
Variations in rules

Thanks ,I believe I made the correct ruling at the time

I figured this would be a tough question
 
Jack Fate said:
... This is why I don’t like multiple rules in pool * ...
Click to expand...
The CSI rules are the only ones that address the problem for pool, so far as I know. I'd just go with them with the minor additional interpretation I mentioned above. You may want to let CSI know that it would be helpful if the rules explicitly addressed the shoot again situations in all games.
 
Jack Fate said:
Situation:
If a player calls a shot but doesn’t pocket the ball in the correct pocket ( but the ball goes down or another ball get pocketed not in the called pocket)
I understand this is handled like a push out ( such as 9 ball after the break)

Now for the problem

If the incoming player passes the shot back to the other team which player shoots?

Also by the player passing does he then give up his turn after the other team shoots or does it remain his turn?


I hope this isn’t to confusing
If this was singles there wouldn’t any questions
Click to expand...

In this situation, I would have the other team mate shoot. Unlike a push out, this was an actual shot that was missed. If the same player goes to shoot again that is basically them taking the second shot out of turn (see the hustle done in Poolhall Junkies "I would pay to take your shot..." for a similar thought process). On a push out after the break, that is not a "shot" really in my view so the push out can go to the same player.

Rules like this are often based on the event or league you are in, there may be differences between the official rules, if they even address doubles play at all. There is likely no "wrong" way to play this, just what seems right to the person and teams based on logic. My logic tells me once you shoot and miss the ball, that was a full on shot and anything after that goes to the other player in turn.

I think the snooker situation Bob was talking about would deal with the rule about fouls where if you don't make a good hit, the shot can be made to be reset and played again. That I can see going back to the original shooter instead of the next player in turn, it's a bit different than a shot missed in pool, or even a safe, since there is no resetting of the positions to try again in pool.
 
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The first rule question posted I can recall that the answer wasn't easily found and clear cut.

Good post.
 
Deruki said:
The first rule question posted I can recall that the answer wasn't easily found and clear cut.

Good post.
Click to expand...

Probably because there are no real good rules for doubles play. Maybe we can go by Mosconi Cup or World Cup of Pool rules, but they don't include called shot returns since they are both 9 ball. It's almost like bar rules questions, there are lots of options for rules but none of them are "standardized", just commonly used in various combinations.
 
I figured this was a question without absolute answers. I did actually try to find answers in numerous rules. No absolute answers.
I’m going with my gut .
For anyone that cares this I how i called it

In coming player passes
Shot goes back to to the player pocketing & sinking the wrong ball ( & then shoots)
Same player that passed shot is now shooting .

Anything I’m missing?
 
Jack Fate said:
I figured this was a question without absolute answers. I did actually try to find answers in numerous rules. No absolute answers.
I’m going with my gut .
For anyone that cares this I how i called it

In coming player passes
Shot goes back to to the player pocketing & sinking the wrong ball ( & then shoots)
Same player that passed shot is now shooting .

Anything I’m missing?
Click to expand...

This seems to go against some logic. In a normal game, you take a shot then miss, the other team goes, if they miss the next person in line shoots for the first team. Since the player that shot actually did a legal shot just missed the intended ball (in a called shot game making in the wrong pocket is same as a miss), that was his turn. The only difference is the other team chose not to play on their turn due to the pass back rule of called shot/called safe but the rotation of shooting should not have reset. They are turning the shot over to the other team in this case not to the other player unlike in a push out. In a push out, that is basically another setup shot before the game starts, the player did not try to make a ball, and is just moving it to a position to start the game from there, we may call it a passive shot vs an active shot like a safe or trying to pocket a ball, so passing to the same player makes sense there. Where there was a shot done but a miss happened, that should be the end of the turn for that player.

Now that I wrote this I think if we divide up the possible shooting situations into "active" and "passive" type shots we can then divide up the shots into passing back to the player or passing back to the team where the next person in rotation shoots. So say a lag or a coin flip or a push out is a "passive" shot so the person lagging does not have to break or the person pushing out is still in play if the shot is passed back. If you think about it, you lag, so is the person that lagged taken a turn and the other guy has to break, or is the lag a setup for that same player to win the break and shoot themselves? If we classify that as a passive shot, the decision who breaks is still open, if we view it as an active shot, well then the player just shot so the break goes to rotation to the other player on the team. An attempt to make a ball or play safe or a foul committed is an "active" shot, in which case the player that shot is considered to have taken his turn and it ended.
 
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it’s the 10 ball passed back option on a incorrectly pocketed ball with the scotch doubles that makes this complicated
 
Our local tournaments say that you have taken your shot if you hit the cue ball. So if I push, and it is given back, my partner shoots.

In your scenario, we'd say the guy who pocketed the ball illegally would NOT shoot the ball if it was given back. And the player who passed on the shot would shoot next.
 
Ok after looking at logic presented here I’m now going with if you shoot or pass ,that players turn is over . I try to make things as simple as possible

Still odd couldn’t find a absolute written rule on this due to doubles 10 ball . Guess it’s not a real game ; )

Thanks for your help
 
Jack Fate said:
Ok after looking at logic presented here I’m now going with if you shoot or pass ,that players turn is over . I try to make things as simple as possible

Still odd couldn’t find a absolute written rule on this due to doubles 10 ball . Guess it’s not a real game ; )

Thanks for your help
Click to expand...
Could you walk through some examples to make it clearer? (Push out, wrong ball pocketed, ...)
 
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