100 Qualifiers?

[Steve Lipsky]

When was all this announced, including the 2007 Tour Card Tournament? It's possible it was there from the beginning; I've long since given up trying to figure out the goings-on of the IPT.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm now leaning towards the negative on this tour. Seems like a Ponzi scheme to me (100 qualifiers, leading to just one tournament??!).

Anyone hear any more about their pension and health plans?

Is Mark Trainor the "talent agency" that KT was going to hire? Have any of the IPT players been booked for "corporate engagements" yet? Booked for anything? This thing's been running almost a year already.

I'm sure everyone will get paid... but the way the tour is being run gives reason for pause. I was going to buy the live feed thing, until I saw the required payment. $29.95 and then $5.95 per month? I don't even know what that means. I'm guessing I pay a flat fee of $29.95 and then $5.95 for each month I use it? Or each month until I cancel? Whatever it is, I've never seen a payment model like that for something like this. Especially considering there isn't a tournament every month. It scared me enough that I didn't end up buying it.

My last question - does anyone know if there is ever a time in the schedule where they have a ton of qualifiers, followed by a long period without any actual tournaments? I don't think the IPT has any bad intentions (I really don't), but if the thing is going belly-up, it's going to happen after a lot of qualifiers and before a major tournament. And with the "sale" to Ho, as others have mentioned, who's the guy to sue if that happens? Forget about that option.

I was really hoping it wouldn't come to this. My opinion is so split, because the tournaments have been AMAZING to follow. And KT and DA are treating the players so well, with first class venues. But the true pyramid nature of this thing is becoming a reality.

- Steve

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Yes, 100 Qualifiers for 1 tournament. But the 50 best players in that tournament are guaranteed 100 000 $. I think that is pretty ok...

Yes, 29,99 and then 5,95 a month till you cancel it. If you are scared of paying 6 $ a month to get the oppurtunity to watch a lot of great poolmatches whenever you like, AND get great discounts on DVD's AND qualifiers. Well, if that scares you off I hope you do not watch movies like Scary Movie 4 I think it is a GREAT offer.

 

[Purdman]

Yes, 100 Qualifiers for 1 tournament. But the 50 best players in that tournament are guaranteed 100 000 $. I think that is pretty ok...

Yes, 29,99 and then 5,95 a month till you cancel it. If you are scared of paying 6 $ a month to get the oppurtunity to watch a lot of great poolmatches whenever you like, AND get great discounts on DVD's AND qualifiers. Well, if that scares you off I hope you do not watch movies like Scary Movie 4 I think it is a GREAT offer.

Rug Rat, put that beer down, I want some of whatever you are smoking!!
Purdman

 

[Roy Steffensen]

The stuff I am smoking can be ordered from the IPT Membership Club, Pordman. It's true, just sign in

 

[onepocketchump]

Pyramid Scheme is very harsh and not at all accurate. Sure the qualifiers are supposed to be a revenue generating stream. The prize awaiting the 250 players who show up in Vegas is 50 spots at $100,000 each for 2007. That's worth taking a shot at. With paying the airfare and lodging for the winners of the qualifiers I fail to see the scheme in this.

It's pretty straightforward. The players are playing in the pre-qualifiers to earn the spot in the largest qualifier to earn a spot on tour.

The WPBA does the same thing. Players who want to play on the WPBA have to endure going to qualifiers all over the country to earn spots at the events.

The question is how many people are willing to spend $2000 to try and get in the big event. In my opinion the IPT should have spent some money creating local tour directors to run local tournament series through out the year in order to fill up the big event. I would have spent $20 a week playing in a ten week series to try and win a spot in the big event. I am sure that I am not alone and that there are thousands of other players who would have done the same. That would have been the way to go in my opinion alongside the larger pre-qualifiers.

I think the IPT lacks direction and clarity. It would be nice if us hard core fans felt better about what is going on with the sport we love. I don't think the PGA answers to it's fans as to how the PGA is run though so I can't be too critical. If the IPT hurts the players, my friends, then I will do the only thing I can do right now and that's vote with my dollars. As of right now though none of the players seems to have been hurt by the IPT's actions. No one is forced to participate.

John

 

[TheOne]

When was all this announced, including the 2007 Tour Card Tournament? It's possible it was there from the beginning; I've long since given up trying to figure out the goings-on of the IPT.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm now leaning towards the negative on this tour. Seems like a Ponzi scheme to me (100 qualifiers, leading to just one tournament??!).

Anyone hear any more about their pension and health plans?

Is Mark Trainor the "talent agency" that KT was going to hire? Have any of the IPT players been booked for "corporate engagements" yet? Booked for anything? This thing's been running almost a year already.

I'm sure everyone will get paid... but the way the tour is being run gives reason for pause. I was going to buy the live feed thing, until I saw the required payment. $29.95 and then $5.95 per month? I don't even know what that means. I'm guessing I pay a flat fee of $29.95 and then $5.95 for each month I use it? Or each month until I cancel? Whatever it is, I've never seen a payment model like that for something like this. Especially considering there isn't a tournament every month. It scared me enough that I didn't end up buying it.

My last question - does anyone know if there is ever a time in the schedule where they have a ton of qualifiers, followed by a long period without any actual tournaments? I don't think the IPT has any bad intentions (I really don't), but if the thing is going belly-up, it's going to happen after a lot of qualifiers and before a major tournament. And with the "sale" to Ho, as others have mentioned, who's the guy to sue if that happens? Forget about that option.

I was really hoping it wouldn't come to this. My opinion is so split, because the tournaments have been AMAZING to follow. And KT and DA are treating the players so well, with first class venues. But the true pyramid nature of this thing is becoming a reality.

- Steve

I have same thinking as you Steve, I also agree with your reasons for giving up your card but I think we have similar dilema career wise.

I signed up to the website but didnt like the terms, like you said given there isnt going to be any events other than Chicago and KOTH until next July its pretty much almost $100 for 3 events. Still not bad but if youre going to play in a qualifier u get 200 back anyway with the discount so thats worth while.

I have to say though the cancelling of chicago and entry rises without explanation couple with a reduced schedule and no tournaments until the 2nd half of next year has put me off. Not to mention the cheque issue!

 

[macguy]

Yes, 100 Qualifiers for 1 tournament. But the 50 best players in that tournament are guaranteed 100 000 $. I think that is pretty ok...

.

By who?
---------------------

 

[ScottR]

Yes, 100 Qualifiers for 1 tournament. But the 50 best players in that tournament are guaranteed 100 000 $. I think that is pretty ok...

Yes, 29,99 and then 5,95 a month till you cancel it. If you are scared of paying 6 $ a month to get the oppurtunity to watch a lot of great poolmatches whenever you like, AND get great discounts on DVD's AND qualifiers. Well, if that scares you off I hope you do not watch movies like Scary Movie 4 I think it is a GREAT offer.

Guaranteed how? By whom? A legally binding contract?

 

[The Kid]

Pyramid Scheme is very harsh and not at all accurate. Sure the qualifiers are supposed to be a revenue generating stream. The prize awaiting the 250 players who show up in Vegas is 50 spots at $100,000 each for 2007. That's worth taking a shot at. With paying the airfare and lodging for the winners of the qualifiers I fail to see the scheme in this.

How can the players entering the qualifiers trust that there is going to be a tour in 2007?

KT guarantees at least $100,000 per player for 2007, try getting that $100,000 if things go wrong.

Also notice next year every tournament has 150 members plus 50 qualifiers, no exclusive IPT members tournaments.

I also have enjoyed the tournaments so far, all these monsters playing together is amazing.
But this is turning into a tour which is all about how many qualifiers can they squeeze in, to generate the most amount of money to help fund the tour.

 

[Keith Buck]

Also notice next year every tournament has 150 members plus 50 qualifiers, no exclusive IPT members tournaments.

I don't know where you are looking because tournaments eight and nine are listed as being for the 150 tour card holders.

Of course, with the news that there won't be 11 tournaments next year it wouldn't surprise me if one or both of the tour only events were included in the cancelled events.

If I had the ability to play at the pro level I think I would regret not trying to qualify if the tour went ahead next year more than I would regret losing the $2000 entry fee plus expenses if the tour folds after I qualified. That is the decision that the players have to make now and different people will have different answers depending on their circumstances.

 

[jjinfla]

Look at the IPT website. You guys don't think it is worth 30 bucks just to watch what they have up and available right now?

How about half price for the DVD's. That is not a good deal?

What a bunch of pikers.

Just watching the final match was worth it to me and I can watch it over and over.

As far as security I feel pretty secure charging it to my credit card. There are built in protections for me.

Jake

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Guaranteed how? By whom? A legally binding contract?

Oh my god, you are probably not trusting politicians either?????

 

[ScottR]

Oh my god, you are probably not trusting politicians either?????

Similar to the saying "I would not join any country club that would have me as a member", I don't trust anyone who wants to be elected!

p.s. Don't you guys have a King or something??

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Yeah, we have a King, but we send him abroad as often as we can!

 

[macguy]

Oh my god, you are probably not trusting politicians either?????

You didn't answer the question.
You made the statement, so tell us who?

 

[Roy Steffensen]

I trust the IPT when they say they will guarantee...

 

[onepocketchump]

Guaranteed how? By whom? A legally binding contract?

By the IPT, a legal entity, via publicly advertised promises, both verbally and in writing. I believe that such a verbal promise, used to entice people to part with their money in exchange for that promise is enforceable in court.

Not being a lawyer I have no precedence to quote on this subject and I also believe that no matter how clear it seems it would be a horrendous fight to actually get any money if it came to that.

I do know that a promise is a legally binding contract. KT and Deno, speaking from executive postions in the IPT have made this promise repeatably. I am guessing there are several hundred players who would be able to testify to this in court as well as thousands of fans.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Pyramid Scheme is very harsh and not at all accurate. Sure the qualifiers are supposed to be a revenue generating stream. The prize awaiting the 250 players who show up in Vegas is 50 spots at $100,000 each for 2007. That's worth taking a shot at. With paying the airfare and lodging for the winners of the qualifiers I fail to see the scheme in this.

How can the players entering the qualifiers trust that there is going to be a tour in 2007?

KT guarantees at least $100,000 per player for 2007, try getting that $100,000 if things go wrong.

Also notice next year every tournament has 150 members plus 50 qualifiers, no exclusive IPT members tournaments.

I also have enjoyed the tournaments so far, all these monsters playing together is amazing.
But this is turning into a tour which is all about how many qualifiers can they squeeze in, to generate the most amount of money to help fund the tour.

Try getting ON TOUR next year and having to pay $2000 for EVERY qualifier.

Who cares if they have 100 qualifiers for every tournament? Eventually the market will balance as to how many people will pay $2000 to try for a spot and the number of entrants will reflect that. As it is right now when you see the first ten qualifiers with 3-8 entrants in them.

As has been explained numerous times the qualifier revenue does not begin to approach the amount needed to cover the payouts and expenses of hte IPT. As has been explained numerous times Kevin has laid out the business plan for the success of the IPT and it is not based on qualifiers. It is based on advertising and licensing.

The qualifiers should eventually become a great source of revenue if done right. In essence this is what the APA is built on. You play a certain amount of weeks to qualify to be allowed to compete on a higher level and then you compete for the right to go to the International Event.

As is the BCA and VNEA. No one calls them a Ponzi Scheme.

If the IPT does their job right then getting on the IPT full time and getting in select tournaments will be a mixture of what it takes to compete on the WPT and the PGA, where the best players are at the top but there is a steady stream of good players moving up towards the top.

If they do it wrong then they'll have a roster of 150 players to market each year plus about another 1-200 who have the desire and backing to continue to try for tour cards and tournament spots.

Either way, the advertising and licensing models have nothing at all to do with the qualifiers. IF pool gets on TV in a big way then there will be plenty of money to support the IPT. Without that the IPT is dead anyway, as all the other tours and promoters have found out. One thing we all know for sure is that no one in pool has had the media clout that Kevin Trudeau has had. Even the King of Infomercials has a certain amount of clout in TV Land. How much and how effective it is remains up in the air, but it's more than anyone else so far.

John

 

[macguy]

By the IPT, a legal entity, via publicly advertised promises, both verbally and in writing. I believe that such a verbal promise, used to entice people to part with their money in exchange for that promise is enforceable in court.

Not being a lawyer I have no precedence to quote on this subject and I also believe that no matter how clear it seems it would be a horrendous fight to actually get any money if it came to that.

I do know that a promise is a legally binding contract. KT and Deno, speaking from executive postions in the IPT have made this promise repeatably. I am guessing there are several hundred players who would be able to testify to this in court as well as thousands of fans.

John

I doubt that KT would have allowed himself to be exposed to any future litigation, he is a smart guy especially in this department. The IPT probably exists just on paper and could be folded at any time, there would be no one to go after. Other then actual tournament money owed I could not imagine they could be responsible for optimistic promises made that were in good faith at the time they were made.

I really do think when they say things they believe them to be true, KT thinks big no doubt that, but reality can often humble even the best of intentions. I so wish he had just decided be a sponsor of say four annual "OPEN" tournaments with like $750,000 dollar prize funds each. He then could have put all his concentration on marketing it, TV, DVD's and so on what he knows best. A simple streamlined operation that would be long lasting and could have built over time. Players would have come out of the woodwork to play and other small tournaments would have sprung from it as the pool of players and demand grew. He has gotten so caught up in gimmicks and non productive crap like their own cloth, balls and chalk that no one will ever buy.

If this is what they were counting on from the start they didn't know their market. The product is the game and the players themselves, not a bunch of stuff that is already on the market by manufactures who know what they are doing who would have been happy to come on board and lend support to a viable business plan. He actually was attempting to go into competition with them instead of using them, that was a losing plan from the start. You don't try to beat people at their own game, especially people who can help you succeed.

There are people on this board who with those kinds resources could put together something that would be almost risk free and long lasting instead of the ridiculous business plan that seems to exist now in the IPT. I know you want to be positive but don't you think you would have done it differently if you were in charge? I don't for one minute think the IPT started out as a scam, even with KT involved nor is it now.

I do think regardless what some others may say, they do not know what they are doing and the best thing they could do is have the last tournament this year then announce they are putting things on hold and are going to reevaluate what they are doing and come back in a scaled down less complicated way and begin to promote the game and it's players in a way that is not destine to fail. This is all really, anyone asks. It is good to dare great things but why fail if it was not necessary. Little about what they have done makes any long term sense.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I doubt that KT would have allowed himself to be exposed to any future litigation, he is a smart guy especially in this department. The IPT probably exists just on paper and could be folded at any time, there would be no one to go after. Other then actual tournament money owed I could not imagine they could be responsible for optimistic promises made that were in good faith at the time they were made.

I really do think when they say things they believe them to be true, KT thinks big no doubt that, but reality can often humble even the best of intentions. I so wish he had just decided be a sponsor of say four annual "OPEN" tournaments with like $750,000 dollar prize funds each. He then could have put all his concentration on marketing it, TV, DVD's and so on what he knows best. A simple streamlined operation that would be long lasting and could have built over time. Players would have come out of the woodwork to play and other small tournaments would have sprung from it as the pool of players and demand grew. He has gotten so caught up in gimmicks and non productive crap like their own cloth, balls and chalk that no one will ever buy.

If this is what they were counting on from the start they didn't know their market. The product is the game and the players themselves, not a bunch of stuff that is already on the market by manufactures who know what they are doing who would have been happy to come on board and lend support to a viable business plan. He actually was attempting to go into competition with them instead of using them, that was a losing plan from the start. You don't try to beat people at their own game, especially people who can help you succeed.

There are people on this board who with those kinds resources could put together something that would be almost risk free and long lasting instead of the ridiculous business plan that seems to exist now in the IPT. I know you want to be positive but don't you think you would have done it differently if you were in charge? I don't for one minute think the IPT started out as a scam, even with KT involved nor is it now.

I do think regardless what some others may say, they do not know what they are doing and the best thing they could do is have the last tournament this year then announce they are putting things on hold and are going to reevaluate what they are doing and come back in a scaled down less complicated way and begin to promote the game and it's players in a way that is not destine to fail. This is all really, anyone asks. It is good to dare great things but why fail if it was not necessary. Little about what they have done makes any long term sense.

Great post. I agree entirely, especially with regard to KT not doing anything with bad intentions.