14.1 Hi-Run Challenge at BCAPL

Yes

Blackjack said:
I'm pretty sure that had a lot to do with Willie's deal with Brunswick. IMO, they sort of kept him in a corner looking nice while the other players fought it out on the money tables. I think it was a shame that he didn't play in those events, but it's a good bet that nobody missed Willie at Johnson City.
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I agree David. But even if Brunswick wouldn't have frowned on Mosconi's participation at Johnston City, it's unlikely that Willie would have gone. Two main reasons - those tournaments weren't sanctioned so their champions wasn't recognized and he had nothing but contempt and pure bile for the money players that played in those tournaments. Probably was best that he didn't go because if he did he would've gotten into fist fights every day. He really did have a hatred for them that the only thing comparable I could think of is deep south racism during the 50's.

Ron F
 
What??

Winston846 said:
In Fatty's defense, he was not a 14.1 player. Fatty's games were banks and 1-pocket, and he played those very respectably.

And not knocking Willie, but why did he avoid Johnston City like the plague?
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Just re-read this again. If you have Fats in the same league as Willie in any game you have no idea how good Willie was or how much of Fat's game was bullshit. He was an attraction and he was the very best at making a spectacle of himself. Against a world champion, any world champion, he'd never survive. He made it into the hall of fame because of his acting ability, not even close for his pool shooting skills in any game.

Ron F
 
Friends

Ron F said:
Just re-read this again. If you have Fats in the same league as Willie in any game you have no idea how good Willie was or how much of Fat's game was bullshit. He was an attraction and he was the very best at making a spectacle of himself. Against a world champion, any world champion, he'd never survive. He made it into the hall of fame because of his acting ability, not even close for his pool shooting skills in any game.

Ron F
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Winston & Ron, I really like the both of you. I hate to get in the middle but I do agree with everything Ron has written. I do think that Fats was very good at Banks but I have no proof. I do not know if there is any proof recorded.
My mentor Leroy Kinman who he and his wife were very close friends of Willie & his wife (always stayed at each other's houses etc.) Has told me numerous times that Willie hated "Road Players". Roy told me that Willie would only gamble with them to run them out of town. He would take all their money and leave them enough to catch a bus.
Roy also hates Fats. Even now as old as Roy is (82) he goes nuts when someone mentions Fats. Roy even showed me a letter that he had written to the Hall of Fame stating that it was a disgrace for inducting Fats. Their answer was: that Fats was a great showmen and did lots for pool. I do believe that is correct. When, I was a kid in the 60's there always was lot of talk about Fats and he had his own weekly TV show that I remember watching all the time.
Anyways, that is what this Forum is all about: good healthy discussions.
It is ten times better then when it was dead for a few months a while back and no one was writing.
 
And...

Also, if Fats was the gambling, hustling road player, why did he only show up
for 1 Johnston City tournament. the very 1st one?
 
14-1StraightMan said:
Winston & Ron, I really like the both of you. I hate to get in the middle but I do agree with everything Ron has written. I do think that Fats was very good at Banks but I have no proof. I do not know if there is any proof recorded.
My mentor Leroy Kinman who he and his wife were very close friends of Willie & his wife (always stayed at each other's houses etc.) Has told me numerous times that Willie hated "Road Players". Roy told me that Willie would only gamble with them to run them out of town. He would take all their money and leave them enough to catch a bus.
Roy also hates Fats. Even now as old as Roy is (82) he goes nuts when someone mentions Fats. Roy even showed me a letter that he had written to the Hall of Fame stating that it was a disgrace for inducting Fats. Their answer was: that Fats was a great showmen and did lots for pool. I do believe that is correct. When, I was a kid in the 60's there always was lot of talk about Fats and he had his own weekly TV show that I remember watching all the time.
Anyways, that is what this Forum is all about: good healthy discussions.
It is ten times better then when it was dead for a few months a while back and no one was writing.
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That's OK, Mike. We've known each other since 8th grade and get into it like this all the time. ;) As for Fats' banking ability, just watch the old ESPN telecast where he plays (and beats) Mosconi in the 7-ball portion of the competition. Fats was left down-table on the 7 and had to cut a cross-corner bank to make it on his side of the table. Allen Hopkins was commenting on how good of a bank and one pocket player Fats was and said he would probably make that shot 7 out of 10 times - and sure enough, Fats fired it right in.

EDIT: I can't access YouTube from work, but I know the video of their matchup on ESPN is on there somewhere.
 
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Winston846 said:
In Fatty's defense, he was not a 14.1 player. Fatty's games were banks and 1-pocket, and he played those very respectably.
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He wasn't even that great of a one pocket player. Mosconi beat him out of quite a bit of money in 1951 or 1952 playing one pocket. Fatty lost all his money and then asked his backer for more money because "Willie has no idea how to play this game, he just keeps running 8 and out".

So Mosconi, who doesn't even play one pocket proceeds tp drill Fatty at his best game. That right there says it all.
 
Mr441 said:
Fatty lost all his money and then asked his backer for more money because "Willie has no idea how to play this game, he just keeps running 8 and out".
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This reminds me of a Cisero Murply quote...I don't remember the exact words but it went something like this.

Player: Wow, Cicero that guy is great, he just ran 100 balls.
Cicero: He doesn't know how to play, he didn't run them right.
 
Ron F said:
We've been talking about Willie and his passion for the game and whether he'd be able to run 526 on a Diamond Pro Am for the last 8 posts. What are you talking about?

Ron F
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Just responding to your post on the Fatty story.
 
Mr441 said:
He wasn't even that great of a one pocket player. Mosconi beat him out of quite a bit of money in 1951 or 1952 playing one pocket. Fatty lost all his money and then asked his backer for more money because "Willie has no idea how to play this game, he just keeps running 8 and out".

So Mosconi, who doesn't even play one pocket proceeds tp drill Fatty at his best game. That right there says it all.
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He certainly wasn't Mosconi's speed, but he also wasn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be. He was once Luther Lassiter's road partner, so he couldn't have been that bad. Everyone talks like he stunk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Lassiter
 
Stunk Stink Stank

Winston846 said:
He certainly wasn't Mosconi's speed, but he also wasn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be. He was once Luther Lassiter's road partner, so he couldn't have been that bad. Everyone talks like he stunk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Lassiter
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You need to research more. In the grand scheme of things, Fats was never at risk of being a world champion. Not in his best game on his best day. He was a master at making games, finding weaknesses and exploiting them, knowing who to play and when (only when they were vulnerable as it would have it), and woofing. Have you ever noticed every time his play was captured on camera it was 80% of him talking and 20% of pool playing?
 
Ron F said:
You need to research more. In the grand scheme of things, Fats was never at risk of being a world champion. Not in his best game on his best day. He was a master at making games, finding weaknesses and exploiting them, knowing who to play and when (only when they were vulnerable as it would have it), and woofing. Have you ever noticed every time his play was captured on camera it was 80% of him talking and 20% of pool playing?
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Never said he was World Champion material. Just saying he didn't stink. He had to have some kind of game to travel with Lassiter.

And maybe you should do a little more research. Apparently I'm not the only one who realized Fatty could play. He finished 4th in the 1961 World One Pocket Tournament.

http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?p=1068
 
Winston846 said:
Never said he was World Champion material. Just saying he didn't stink. He had to have some kind of game to travel with Lassiter.

And maybe you should do a little more research. Apparently I'm not the only one who realized Fatty could play. He finished 4th in the 1961 World One Pocket Tournament.

http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?p=1068
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4th? 4TH? Is that the best you can come up with?? Do you even know how many guys played in that tournament?????? What's with the Minnesota Fats kick? My GOD! It's a straight pool forum.
 
Winston846 said:
Never said he was World Champion material. Just saying he didn't stink. He had to have some kind of game to travel with Lassiter.

And maybe you should do a little more research. Apparently I'm not the only one who realized Fatty could play. He finished 4th in the 1961 World One Pocket Tournament.

http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?p=1068
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Only 13 or 14 people played in that event and most of the best one pocket players weren't even there.
 
My only point....

My only point is that Fats didn't stink. Didn't anyone read what Freddy The Beard had to say about him?????

---------------------------------------------------

Surfing Internet pool forums I came across a string of posts saying that Minnesota
Fats (Rudolph Wonderone aka New York Fats) was a “B” player. For many years
stories have gone around claiming that Fatty couldn’t beat his way out of a wet paper
bag. However, such fanciful rumors do not conform to my memories of seeing the
Fatman in action in Johnston City in the early 60s.

Three in the side:
I don’t know if this was one of Fatty’s pet banks, but I saw him make it
six times in a row warming up.

Fats made the bank above to win a $5,000 one pocket match with “Handsome Danny”
Jones who happened to be the US Snooker Champion at the time.
Fatty’s next customer was World One Pocket Champion Marshall “Squirrel” Carpenter.
Fatty put Squirrel in the ditch by running three racks of one pocket in a row. Tell
me how a “B” player can run 3 consecutive racks of one pocket? People who demean
Fats never played him and probably never saw him play for big bucks.
Fats had enough speed to finish 4th in the World One Pocket Tournament in 1961.
Considering the field and the fact that Fats was almost 50 years old at the time, this
was quite an accomplishment. Despite an abundance of top players in attendance
in Johnston City, no one treated him like a “B” player. Even the best players were
wary about matching up with the Fatman. Fats was dangerous and everyone there
knew it.
Squirrel told me “Fats was a very streaky player. When Fatty got on a roll he could
beat anyone. His best game was 3 Cushion, then banks and then one pocket.” When
Fats went into high gear, he became an unbeatable one-pocket-playing-machine
that made confetti out of everyone who challenged him.
The day after Bill ‘Weenie Beanie’ Staton won the 1972 Stardust Open, Fats beat
him so badly playing even up that Beanie couldn’t breathe. Staton was in dead stroke
when the match started having just defeated the top one pocket players in the world,
but that didn’t save him from a brutal beating. Fats ran the last three racks, eight and
out, to finish the session and Beanie could barely stand up. At an age when most
elite players can no longer win in professional competition, Fatty was still depriving
top players of their bankrolls.
Learning that Fats studied under 1928 World Balkline Champion, Eric Hagenlacher,
for a couple of years as a youth, should dispel thoughts that Fats was a “B” player.
Balkline demands very high levels of cue ball and object ball control to play at all
and Fats was a “good” billiard player. There is no better training to produce a
professional pool player than learning to play balkline with some authority. Fats took Hagenlacher’s teaching to heart and became a professional level player in his teens.
Unlike Willie Mosconi who apparently thought of pool as a “job,” Fats genuinely enjoyed competing against tough players. He loved outplaying and outsmarting elite players. Fats viewed pool as a game of wits and few opponents ever out maneuvered him.
Fatty had a huge round Humpty Dumpty body that looked like a ping–pong ball on toothpicks. According to the freight scales in Johnston City, Fats weighed in at 325 pounds.
One thing no one disputes is Fatty’s appetite. He was barred from every smorgasbord and “all you can eat” joint on the planet. The owner of the cafeteria in West Frankfort, stopped Fats before he got a tray saying, “If I let you in, you’ll eat me out of business.” That was no exaggeration because Fats could eat two complete turkeys with the fixings at one sitting.
Fatty was the most energetic fat man I ever saw. He moved like a ballet dancer pirouetting from shot to shot. He floated around the table like a ballroom dancer light as a feather firing in ball after ball. Onlookers were often deceived by Fats babble, which was designed to lure players who should never play him into big money games. To casual observers, Fats boasting, bragging and tall tale telling were amusing, but more serious analysts recognized a deeper more insidious aspect of his chattering. After convincing victims to get down for some serious cash, Fatty’s talk turned to undermining opposition confidence. What seemed entertaining at first took on a sinister tone that eroded self-assurance. On top of the words, Fats dismayed opponents by running rack after rack.
The fact that so many people think that Fats couldn’t play may be a tribute to his ability as a con man or maybe the Fatman fooled people because of the erroneous notion that fat people are congenitally incompetent. The Minnesota Fats was one of my heroes and I miss him.

------------------------------------------------------

PS - Ron, you were the one who originally brought up Fats in a Mosconi quote. I am only refuting your claim that he stunk at pool.
 
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What?

Ron F said:
Thanks for the post, Willie. From reading Willie's Game, The Hustler & The Champ, news clippings, online articles, etc., over time you get a feel for how passionate Willie was for a.) playing pool better than any human being, ever, and b.) being competitive and winning at whatever he tried.

I read the quote you mentioned. He also took young Willie out to play golf and dressed him down because the kid's swing wasn't perfect. When Willie, jr, said they were only out on the course to have fun and enjoy themselves Willie lit into him about not ever doing something for fun. If you're going to do it you do it the right way or don't bother. The kid quit in the middle of the round because he wasn't having any fun bc of the old man.

Or about the time during the match at the Waldorf Astoria between Fatty and Superstroke with Wille and Cosell commentating. Camera breaks>Fatty's asked to entertain the crowd>spectator asks Fats if he ever beat Mosconi> Fats partially ducks by saying I played them all and I beat them all. Willie, 62 years old, in a tux, auditorium full of spectators, hired as just a commentator - ABSOLUTELY FREAKS OUT. Sprints over to get in Fatty's face, cords standing up in his neck, spittle flying everywhere as he calls Fats a BUM who never beat ANYONE. He wanted to play Fats IMMEDIATELY to shut him up. The man could not play at 50%, 75% or 90%. It was balls to the wall, all out warfare whenever he picked up a cue for a match. They don't make them like that anymore. I think they only made one and that was it actually.

Ron F
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I simply mentioned Fats' name while describing how passionate Willie was about the game - which is what was being discussed in the thread!!! What I said had NOTHING to do with whether Fats was world class or whether he sucked. YOU brought up how great he played. Am I alone in wondering why we wasted over a page debating how great Fats Domino played one pocket and bank pool??? This is my last post in this thread about Fats. Period.

Ron F
 
Off Topic

Boy did this thread spiral out of control.

I was wondering what the results of the competition were, but nothing here.

I heard that JS lost his first match, probably to Tony Robles. I heard that Darren took third.

I think Mika, Max, Harriman, a Portugese guy Silva, Corey, and Tony Robles were probably involved but don't know much else.

Anybody hear anything??
 
I Just heard from Darren on Facebook.

1st - Mika
2nd - Robles
3rd - Appleton

this is all i got out of him so far, i will fill in some more blanks as i get them !!!


-Steve
 
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dmgwalsh said:
Boy did this thread spiral out of control.

I was wondering what the results of the competition were, but nothing here.

I heard that JS lost his first match, probably to Tony Robles. I heard that Darren took third.

I think Mika, Max, Harriman, a Portugese guy Silva, Corey, and Tony Robles were probably involved but don't know much else.

Anybody hear anything??
Click to expand...

So it was:

1st: Mika $800
2nd: Robles
3rd-4th Appleton, Harriman
5-8th Schmidt, Eberle, Deuel, Silva. $100 a piece.

Harriman $200 for his high run of the event or high 4 pack of the event.

Which is a little odd because the brackets should have had Harriman as the number one seed playing Appleton, and Mika playing Robles in the semis and not the finals.
 
14.1 High Run at BCAPL

Here is the final scoop on the event.

313 - Harriman (including a 199 run) ($200 Hi- Run prize)
281 - Schmidt (run of 121)
261 - Immonen (run of 113)
233 - Deuel
194 - Appleton
160 - Silva
159 - Robles
151 - Eberle


Harriman defeated Eberle 100-56
Immonen defeated Silva 100-14
Robles defeated Schmidt 100-56
Appleton won by forfeit (Deuel was still in 10 Ball finals).


Immonen defeated Harriman 100 to 4 (with a 91 and out)
Robles defeated Appleton 100-36
Immonen defeated Robles 150 to 26 (with a 109 run)


Immonen = $800
Robles = $500
Harriman & Appleton $250 each
Eberle, Silva, Schmidt, Deuel = $100 each



Men's Amateur:
Mark Dimick - 120 ($720)
Craig Powers - 112 ($540)
Mike MIller - 105 ($360)
Lee Brett - 91 ($180)

Men's Senior:
Peter Lhotka - 56 ($200)
Mike Zygmunt - 54 ($150)
Lyn Weschler - 46 ($100)
Robert Hovick - 42 ( $50)

Women:
Samm Vidal - 48 ($200)
Li Jia - 41 ($125)
Melinda Huang - 41 ($125)
Tamiko Heidrich - 35 ( $50)


All in all - a VERY BIG HIT!! $5,200 in payouts.
A BIG thanks to Richard Burns for helping out with a $1,000 donation.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
 
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