14.1 How would you shoot this?

Dan White

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi. I haven't posted much here lately. I'm interested to hear what most people would do here, and particularly from those who consider 14.1 their best game.

http://cuetable.com/WeiTable/
START(
%BL7P8%CJ4O4%DL9N1%EN0P2%FK6P1%GK6N8%HN0N7%IL7O4%JK5M3%KJ0P7
%LJ5N2%ML7T5%NH5S0%OJ0L8%PH8X1%QT3Q1%RM2I6
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Let's say you got a bad break and are left with the 14. Which option, if either, do would you choose?

1)Hit the 14 hard and force follow into the pack (let's say the angle would put you into the 6/2 balls) to open them up again?

or,
2) hit more softly with the idea of sliding off the 2 to point A? You are trying to get some balls like the 4 to position B while using the 13 as a safety ball.

So what I'm really asking is do you like powering through so you have a chance at a more open table, or do you prefer to pick the pack apart in two, three or four bites with more cue ball control?

Thanks,
dwhite
 
I sort of like a hard stun/slight follow to open up the pack off the 2-ball while playing position (off the 2-ball) for the 13.


qstroker said:
Hi. I haven't posted much here lately. I'm interested to hear what most people would do here, and particularly from those who consider 14.1 their best game.

http://cuetable.com/WeiTable/
START(
%BL7P8%CJ4O4%DL9N1%EN0P2%FK6P1%GK6N8%HN0N7%IL7O4%JK5M3%KJ0P7
%LJ5N2%ML7T5%NH5S0%OJ0L8%PH8X1%QT3Q1%RM2I6
)END

Let's say you got a bad break and are left with the 14. Which option, if either, do would you choose?

1)Hit the 14 hard and force follow into the pack (let's say the angle would put you into the 6/2 balls) to open them up again?

or,
2) hit more softly with the idea of sliding off the 2 to point A? You are trying to get some balls like the 4 to position B while using the 13 as a safety ball.

So what I'm really asking is do you like powering through so you have a chance at a more open table, or do you prefer to pick the pack apart in two, three or four bites with more cue ball control?

Thanks,
dwhite
Click to expand...
 
For me, it 's choice 1, You've got a nice break shot and a solid attack angle into the pack. The time to open these balls is right now. Hit it with good power!
 
Based on the diagram, I would do the same thing StevenPWaldon said, contact the 2 after the 14. Depending on exactly how they are set up and how you hit the 14 I believe you can still end up around position A.

If I have to pick one of you two options, I still play for position A. I don't have the power in my stroke to be confident that I would get through the rack and have a shot. I usually end up in the middle of a bunch of balls without a shot.

This is the great thing about straight pool. There are usually several options, and in many cases the correct decision can depend more upon the abilities of the person holding the cue than the position of the balls.
 
I don't think that there is anything to gain by softly brushing the 2 to set up the 4. If you do that you still need to contact the pack a 3rd time and you will probably end up moving the 4 when you do. This is one of those "either / or" situations, but I like where the 13 is at. That is where you have to weigh your options .

A) I could use that as a break ball because its already there, or

B) I could scatter the balls and HOPE that something works out for me and I MIGHT get a break ball.

C) If I go with option A, then all I need to do is get a key ball, and from this diagram, it looks as if the 2 ball would go exactly where I need a key ball (or in that vicinity) -to the area marked by "A".

CueTable Help



It may or may not work out "perfectly" but the key is not to blast the balls. Mosconi always said that there were two ways to hit the balls - soft and softer. When your faced with situations like this, learn to adapt to what the table gives you. You're not always going to have perfect layouts, so it is a smart move to practice different situations where you need to work to get what you need, not what you want. The 13 is a little low in the stack, but its SOMETHING. Too many times you don't have anything to use, which is why I would work with what I have already. I would not POWER through. Just open the balls up. You don't need to spread them all over the table to do that either. 14.1 is a finesse game, not a power game.

PS... green arrow is supposed to show the cue ball going into the 2 ball...
 
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Blackjack said:
The 13 is a little low in the stack, but its SOMETHING. Too many times you don't have anything to use, which is why I would work with what I have already. I would not POWER through. Just open the balls up. You don't need to spread them all over the table to do that either. 14.1 is a finesse game, not a power game.

PS... green arrow is supposed to show the cue ball going into the 2 ball...
Click to expand...

Thanks for your comments Blackjack. I have a point to clarify though. When you say the 13 isn't ideal for a break ball, but you are going to move the 2 ball over as a key ball, are you talking about (a) using the 2 and 13 as your next shots to get back into the pack, or (b) saving them for the end of the rack? If it is (a) then do you risk having to shoot over the entire rack to get the 2 in the side? Also, you don't sound positive that the 2 will, in fact, move over as a key ball. If it doesn't are you looking to play safe, or are you going to go into the balls just enough to move them out so you might get a shot if the 2 isn't good? If it is (b) then why do you have to settle for a less than ideal break ball before the pack has even been disturbed? Or, are you setting up the 2-13 for later just in case nothing better can be created?

Dan
 
The only reason why you would hit this shot softly is if you were worried about missing the stack altogether. In this particular shot, you have an angle that has the cue-ball hitting the 2-ball right on the sweet-spot. You're cue-ball is going to stay-put and you're likely going to get a shot out of it. This is the kind of gamble straight-pool players pray for. You've even got the 13-ball sitting nice for insurance. SJM is right. Opportunity is now.
 
qstroker said:
Thanks for your comments Blackjack. I have a point to clarify though. When you say the 13 isn't ideal for a break ball, but you are going to move the 2 ball over as a key ball, are you talking about (a) using the 2 and 13 as your next shots to get back into the pack, or (b) saving them for the end of the rack?

Possibly saving them for the end of the rack. There is no reason to use the 13 as a secondary break shot, as SJM and Jude pointed out - you have the opportunity to spread the pack right now. That turns your 13 into a possible break shot. When I spread it out I want to have a pretty good idea which balls are going to set up for me as either a break or key ball. In this situation I saw the 2 as a nice candidate to come above the 13.

If it is (a) then do you risk having to shoot over the entire rack to get the 2 in the side?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If I were to use the 2 as a key ball to get on the 13, I would work for something such as this:

CueTable Help



After pocketing the 2, I would want my cue ball at point A. I would pocket the 13 in the corner and make contact with the stack in or around point B.


Also, you don't sound positive that the 2 will, in fact, move over as a key ball. If it doesn't are you looking to play safe, or are you going to go into the balls just enough to move them out so you might get a shot if the 2 isn't good?

If I use the 14 to spread the balls initially, why would I have to play safe? The only way the balls would cluster up again is if I hit them too hard and the came off the rails and back towards the rack area.

If it is (b) then why do you have to settle for a less than ideal break ball before the pack has even been disturbed? Or, are you setting up the 2-13 for later just in case nothing better can be created?

Dan
Bingo. If something else is created, then fine. The 13 can stay where it is until that happens. Having a less than desirable ball to work with is better than having no ball to work with at all. That is why I would work around the 13 and try to set up for it initially - if it works out - great - of something better comes along, I'll examine that too. However, if I blast away and move the 13, I may or may not be able to manufacture a workable break shot. More runs end due to guys eliminating the wrongs balls at the wrong time than anything else. At least with the 13 you have something to work with and you don't have to spend the entire rack trying to create something that may or may not work out.
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Blackjack: OK, you've clarified most everything. I think you are hitting the pack hard enough to spread the balls some, and to get the 2 to pop up for a key ball. I think I was confused by your citing Mosconi as saying about "soft and softer." I took it from that that you were going to pick apart the rack some. But maybe you can give me an idea of what speed you would hit. I know some of this depends on the exact layout of balls, though. For instance, are you going to hit this shot harder than lag speed? I'm just trying to get a better idea of where you are coming from. I think you'd have to hit them pretty firm to get the 2 to pop out that far. If so, I wonder whether you know what your next shot will be, or if you plan on scattering them enough to play the percentages that you'll have a shot???

Thanks,
Dan
 
So it looks like we have a coupla "scatter 'em and play the odds," and a coupla position players, so far.

dan
 
qstroker said:
Blackjack: OK, you've clarified most everything. I think you are hitting the pack hard enough to spread the balls some, and to get the 2 to pop up for a key ball. I think I was confused by your citing Mosconi as saying about "soft and softer." I took it from that that you were going to pick apart the rack some. But maybe you can give me an idea of what speed you would hit. I know some of this depends on the exact layout of balls, though. For instance, are you going to hit this shot harder than lag speed? I'm just trying to get a better idea of where you are coming from. I think you'd have to hit them pretty firm to get the 2 to pop out that far. If so, I wonder whether you know what your next shot will be, or if you plan on scattering them enough to play the percentages that you'll have a shot???

Thanks,
Dan
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You should read Steve Lipsky's posts on straight pool. It won't require too much work looking it up. It's really the only subject he cares to talk about.

I've been having rather lengthy discussions with him about this and he's got a world of knowledge backing up his beliefs.

(Nothing against Blackjack, who also happens to be a very accomplished player. Steve simply has a lot of posts on this very subject.)
 
qstroker said:
If so, I wonder whether you know what your next shot will be, or if you plan on scattering them enough to play the percentages that you'll have a shot???

Thanks,
Dan
Click to expand...

Dan

I think you answered that question for me with your post on RSB where you quoted Rempe.

A lot of people have brought up some excellent points, but in a situation such as this you have to "feel" your way through the rack. Mizerak told me once that you can "either feel the table, or the table can feel you. If your scared of the shot or if you're not sure that you're going to make a shot or deal with a certain layout, then chances are the table will psyche you out. On the other hand, if you KNOW that the balls don't stand a chance, then they won't."

So, the best way that I can answer "will you hit this shot harder than lag speed" is that you should watch the greats and see how they moved the balls. Rempe is a great example, so is Mike Sigel. I used to watch players like Jack Colavita, Mike Zuglan, Gene Nagy, and especially The Miz. IMO, nobody dealt with speed control and breaking up clusters/break shots better than Gene Nagy. When Mosconi hit a ball, it seemed to roll different for him, sort of like the balls followed his direction out of respect for who he was. To me, there was nothing more graceful than watching The Miz melt into his stance and glare down his cue. So I guess its how you approach it, and whether your stroke is in sync with your attitude.

In closing, I would like to say that over the past 5-6 years we have lost some of the greatest 14.1 players in the history of the game. We have lost Boston Shorty, Babe Cranfield, Irving Crane, Jimmy Caras, Jack Colavita, Johnny Ervolino, Eddie Taylor, Steve Mizerak, & Gene Nagy.

I can't express enough to everyone how important it is to tap into the knowledge of players like Jim Rempe, Jimmy Reid, Bob Jewett, Pete Margo, Mike Sigel, Ray Martin, Mike Zuglan, Jeff Carter, Jerry Breiseth, Danny Diliberto, Buddy Hall, Mike Lebron, and others that have such vast knowledge of how to play this game. Take advantage of that every chance you get. I've tapped into the knowledge of John Schmidt (CLICK HERE), Ralf, Thorsten, Tommy Kennedy, and almost every day I'm asking Danny Harriman questions about straight pool to get solutions to situations that I am having problems with. The players I have mentioned are all very accessible and more than happy to answer questions.
 
am i the only one who would do it differently?

im scared of: 1/ having the cb stuck in the pack , or 2/ just slitle cuting the2, so nothing moves and the cb goes uptable. (maybe the 4 will move out far enough , but the shot just isnt my first idea, and i usually always follow my first idea.µ

my first idea is this:

CueTable Help



the 2 cornerballs should move nicely. the 15 will go towards the topcorner pocket, the 11 will move to the lower corner pocket. the 11 will probably be your next shot. i dont see the advantage of chosing a keyball etc now, when there are only 2 balls out of the pack. id say you'll have 75% chance you probably are going to change keyball by the end of the rack.

i prefere this option because its a better breakball to go into the pack, you probably will have 2 balls left close to a pocket to continue with, and the pack will be better spread this way.

can anyone try both options and see wich one gives the best options?

but im way not as knowledged as blackjack, so im probably wrong with my shotchoice. let me know what u think.
 
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Solartje said:
am i the only one who would do it differently?

im scared of: 1/ having the cb stuck in the pack , or 2/ just slitle cuting the2, so nothing moves and the cb goes uptable. (maybe the 4 will move out far enough , but the shot just isnt my first idea, and i usually always follow my first idea.µ

my first idea is this:

CueTable Help



the 2 cornerballs should move nicely. the 15 will go towards the topcorner pocket, the 11 will move to the lower corner pocket. the 11 will probably be your next shot. i dont see the advantage of chosing a keyball etc now, when there are only 2 balls out of the pack. id say you'll have 75% chance you probably are going to change keyball by the end of the rack.

i prefere this option because its a better breakball to go into the pack, you probably will have 2 balls left close to a pocket to continue with, and the pack will be better spread this way.

can anyone try both options and see wich one gives the best options?

but im way not as knowledged as blackjack, so im probably wrong with my shotchoice. let me know what u think.
Click to expand...


Your choice isn't right or wrong. We all make decisions based on our capabilities. I have the ability with this layout to leave the 13 where it is and proceed through the rack quite easily because I am spreading the balls away from the 13. Like I said, if something else comes up - it comes up. Right now its not there, so I'll stick with the 13 for now.

As far as breaking up this cluster, its actually what I call a "dead spread". Look at the 2 ball, and then look at the balls in the center... from the contact point on the 2 ball, we have it dispersing the balls surround the 6, 7, and 9 balls. Those 3 balls are very important because they are in the heart of the stack.

CueTable Help



We have to make sure we make contact with the 2 ball at prcisely the angle and speed that we need to separate them from each other. If we blast the stack, there is no telling what ball is going to where. The balls should diperse, not explode. Cisero Murphy used to tell me - "neat in - neat out". If you get sloppy you may end up creating irritating 2 ball clusters that do nothing but slow you down.

When I tried this layout last night, I contacted the stack and the 2 ball came off the 9 and 5 and set up for a beautiful break shot. So much for the 13. I'm sure if I was to try it again today I would end up with something completely different. lol.

Don't ever think you're wrong because you are staying in your comfort zone. The more you play, the more experience you will get and you will be able to dissect the rack much easier and see things that others don't see.
 
thx blackjack for the feedback.

and u are probably right when u say, that everyone plays the shot he feels most comfortable with. drawing and using the 13 as keyball is (for now ) the only real breakball i have been training. ive shot this shot hundreds of times, with different speeds/englisch etc. i dont train enough right now to add another way of breaking the pack. i know there are so many different ways, but im not going to train other breakshot types s as long as i havent mastered the first one, and i cant say i know how everything is going to go for 90% sure yet. im only playing for 1 year, and straight pool for about 6 months. only now am i starting to master this breakshot. maybe after 10years of mastering every possible breakupshot, i would have played it like you. no idea :D

we all got to start somewhere. :)

love this wei posts, with how would u do it? i really think there should come a seperate section for it !!!!. i would post on every single of them. i think its a greath way of learning, and if pro's can add comments, then this is just heaven. thx blackjack for your input.

ps: when can we see you blackjacks 245 run with comments? :D
 
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245? Right...dream on. I thought of doing one for a 100 or 125 run, but I think John's 245 ball run and his expertise on the game makes any attempt on my part useless. Buy John's dvd, you wont be disappointed.
 
well it doesnt really matter if its 100 or 245 or 700 for my part :D

u are very good in explaining things. im sure some azb'ers would be interested in a video. seeing 245 being potted by a pro doesnt make me smarter. well it does, but it takes alot of time. its how well its explained that makes or brakes it.

:rolleyes: just my 2c
 
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