14.1 Performance Stats

[Colin Colenso]

Not being much of a 14.1 aficionado, what I do know about the sport is largely from what I've read on these boards.

The impression these 'big fish' stories tends to leave one with, is that there has been a whole bunch of legends with phenomenal talent who could seemingly run 100's at will, or at least one in every half dozen visits or so.

After looking at the 14.1 World Champs stats, sparse as they are, I get the impression that many very good 14.1 players take 10 visits or so just to accumulate 100 points, and the elite in the field would appear to take 5 or so visits to reach 100 on average.

So my question to some of those who've seen a lot of 14.1 is what average score per visit is in the elite category?

Let's count visits as any time a player makes a ball or more in a visit, so as to not dilute the averages with safety visits.

It would seem that 20 per visit would be in the upper echelon from what I've seen at this event.

Would be good if stats like this were collected so that players could be rated.

Colin

 

[lewdo26]

Not being much of a 14.1 aficionado, what I do know about the sport is largely from what I've read on these boards.

The impression these 'big fish' stories tends to leave one with, is that there has been a whole bunch of legends with phenomenal talent who could seemingly run 100's at will, or at least one in every half dozen visits or so.

After looking at the 14.1 World Champs stats, sparse as they are, I get the impression that many very good 14.1 players take 10 visits or so just to accumulate 100 points, and the elite in the field would appear to take 5 or so visits to reach 100 on average.

So my question to some of those who've seen a lot of 14.1 is what average score per visit is in the elite category?

Let's count visits as any time a player makes a ball or more in a visit, so as to not dilute the averages with safety visits.

It would seem that 20 per visit would be in the upper echelon from what I've seen at this event.

Would be good if stats like this were collected so that players could be rated.

Colin

I am *absolutely* no expert anaylyst of 14.1, Colin. But what I can tell you with almost full certainty (experts correct me if I'm wrong) is that equipment (primarily pocket size and speed of cloth) has EVERYTHING to do with it. I'd guess a player like Hohmann, would run a century every 2 or 3 days on somewhat tough equipment if he played 14.1 everyday. Now, I'm still curious to know what real 14.1 students have to say about this.

 

[Gerry]

I'd say pocket size has a little to do with it, but the biggest determining factor is how sticky the tables are meaning humidity, temperature, and how clean the equipment is. I've heard many great players say "if the balls open up I'll run a million", but when the tables and the balls are dirty and the humidity is up the runs will shorten dramatically. A good friend of mine told me at the 14.1 Worlds going on right now, it started raining real hard even creating a leak into the tourney area, and almost instantly the tables got sticky and the runs were killed. If we look at the high runs before during and after the rain event I bet it shows a trend towards what I'm talking about...

I'd also venture to say when a top flight straight pooler is in stroke and practicing every day, they'd run 100 most every practice session....especially Hohman! just look what happened when the games went from 100 to 200....the runs sky rocketed.

Gerry

 

[Williebetmore]

It would seem that 20 per visit would be in the upper echelon from what I've seen at this event.

Would be good if stats like this were collected so that players could be rated.

Colin

Colin,
I think your estimate may be quite high. In top flight championship play (more than a few matches), I think it is quite rare to have any player average even 15 (Mosconi and Mizerak come to mind as the only 2 players to win a championship level tournament and average 15).

I think we can get SJM to weigh in (I believe he has these stats). But I think Steve Mizerak may have the highest career tournament average (somewhere around 15); which is a testament to a dominance that goes largely unrecognized.

Yes, equipment certainly affects the averages, but stiff competition makes the penalty for missing so great that even great offensive players (if they come to their senses) will start thinking about playing safe with even medium risk shots available.

 

[stroke]

don't forget that the average balls per inning includes safeties, so if you are actually watching top players at the game, you will see some very high runs truncated by a few rounds of safety play.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
I think your estimate may be quite high. In top flight championship play (more than a few matches), I think it is quite rare to have any player average even 15 (Mosconi and Mizerak come to mind as the only 2 players to win a championship level tournament and average 15).

I think we can get SJM to weigh in (I believe he has these stats). But I think Steve Mizerak may have the highest career tournament average (somewhere around 15); which is a testament to a dominance that goes largely unrecognized.

Yes, equipment certainly affects the averages, but stiff competition makes the penalty for missing so great that even great offensive players (if they come to their senses) will start thinking about playing safe with even medium risk shots available.

Thanks Willie,
I assumed such stats have been given attention to. Stroke pointed out that Miz's 15 avg. stat may have included safeties. I'm not sure how often that would occur or how that might effect the numbers.

Anyway, a good stats system like this really would provide an accurate performance measure. There's not much to compare in 8-ball and 9-ball except break & run percentages and they are sparse and not truly indicative of overall performance.

Colin

 

[hobokenapa]

I think we can get SJM to weigh in (I believe he has these stats). But I think Steve Mizerak may have the highest career tournament average (somewhere around 15); which is a testament to a dominance that goes largely unrecognized.

I remember SJM telling me that 15 was the number for the upper echelon, but that does include safeties. I also seem to recall that Irving Crane's average was less than that because he was more safety oriented. A way to exclude safeties would be to see what the players would score on Equal Offense without the 20 limit on each inning. I believe Sigel would have averaged 40-50 each inning in his prime.

But I think SJM holds the key to this thread.

 

[JAM]

Not being much of a 14.1 aficionado, what I do know about the sport is largely from what I've read on these boards.

The impression these 'big fish' stories tends to leave one with, is that there has been a whole bunch of legends with phenomenal talent who could seemingly run 100's at will, or at least one in every half dozen visits or so....

The only thing I can say is that Thorsten Hohmann is one pool-playing machine, and in the year 2006, he just may be unstoppable.

I've seen him compete many times, and he doesn't make very many mistakes. His concentration is always on when he's in the pit. Whether he executes a good shot or a miss, his tableside demeanor remains the same, focused and deliberate.

Thorsten Hohmann is a humble player, but when he's competing, his action most definitely speaks louder than any words.

In this snapshot, taken at the 2004 Super Billiards Expo, Thorsten is posing with fellow German Markus Funk of Eurowest Cues. I remember right before I took the picture, Thorsten said the name plate on the pool tables at the pro event had misspelled his last name, and the word it spelled in the German language meant "nitwit." Thorsten had the name plate spelling corrected, but the two Germans got a good chuckle out of it.

Is it possible that the Germans are currently replacing the infamous Filipino Invasion from days gone by? It seems the pool headlines read Ralf Souquet, Thorsten Hohmann, and Thomas Engert in recent times.

JAM

 

[Cornerman]

It would seem that 20 per visit would be in the upper echelon from what I've seen at this event.

If you include safeties, I believe the high average is in the 20's for the US Open 14.1 (Miz). But if you don't include safeties, it would have been much higher. So, I'd guess that per tournament, the winner will be higher than 20's.

Stories and legends continued, both Larry Hubbart and Larry Lisciotti both used to tell the story of their first encounter. Hubbart goes into Lisciotti's pool room incognito to get some 14.1 action. He plays Lisciotti four games, with Lisciotti running a hundred balls every set. Strong.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

.

Is it possible that the Germans are currently replacing the infamous Filipino Invasion from days gone by? It seems the pool headlines read Ralf Souquet, Thorsten Hohmann, and Thomas Engert in recent times.

JAM

Definitely in 14.1. It started with Ortmann shocking the U.S. with his first US Open 14.1 title in the 80's, then following up with a second. Then Ralf took the last U.S. Open in NYC.

I suppose we could make a sweeping generalization about the game. 14.1 is discipline over creativity (or disciplined creativity). And my dealings with German companies and people, that would be a very good description of those that I've met.

Fred

 

[hobokenapa]

I suppose we could make a sweeping generalization about the game. 14.1 is discipline over creativity (or disciplined creativity). And my dealings with German companies and people, that would be a very good description of those that I've met.

Absolutely agree here. The Germans I know are proud of their discipline and organisation. The epitome of any country can be seen in their national football team. The Germans are renowned for their hard-working, methodic, organised and disiplined approach. They have had very few star players over the years (only Beckenbauer and Matthaus come to mind), but they always seem to be able to reach the latter stages. Something England can never do They have also not lost a penalty shoot-out in 30 years!

 

[Double-Dave]

In the 2005 EC Hohmann's average score was 50, running 1000 points in 20 innings. I have never heard anyone else come even close. In Germany they play a game called 14.1 endless alot. You're not playing to a certain score, but rather a pre-set number of turns. I believe that 5 average is a benchmark in these games. Thorsten ran his high-run in one of these endless games, he started with a 76, then a 404!

 

[gulfportdoc]

Definitely in 14.1. It started with Ortmann shocking the U.S. with his first US Open 14.1 title in the 80's, then following up with a second. Then Ralf took the last U.S. Open in NYC.



Fred

Hohmann is a uniquely talented and gifted player. However, don't get too warm and fuzzy about the Germans. Reportedly 14.1 is widely played in Germany, but 14.1 has not been played in U.S. rooms for 20 years or more. Sadly, the average American player has never played straight pool, nor would he know how to begin.

Unfortunately 9-ball is still the most widely played tournament game today, and I don't see any country dominating in that game.

Doc

 

[GADawg]

Hohmann is a uniquely talented and gifted player. However, don't get too warm and fuzzy about the Germans. Reportedly 14.1 is widely played in Germany, but 14.1 has not been played in U.S. rooms for 20 years or more. Sadly, the average American player has never played straight pool, nor would he know how to begin.

Unfortunately 9-ball is still the most widely played tournament game today, and I don't see any country dominating in that game.

Doc

Doc -

I think unfortunately you are right about straight pool in the US. Until it does make a come back on a large scale, the American players are likely to be chasing those from countries where 14.1 is a more popular game.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Unfortunately 9-ball is still the most widely played tournament game today, and I don't see any country dominating in that game.

Doc

There is way too much luck in that game which makes it tough to really dominate it, especially now where there are so many players from so many countries.

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

Definitely in 14.1. It started with Ortmann shocking the U.S. with his first US Open 14.1 title in the 80'sFred

Hey, I can finally say I was there for that one! It was at a hotel in Chicago. A few of us drove up from Champaign to watch. And.. Kieith was sitting right next to me in the bleachers. Needless to say, it was very entertaining. He beat Mizerak in the finals.

Alex

PS that's the first time I saw Massy do his finger ball exhibition, it was truly amazing.

 

[PoolBum]

Definitely in 14.1. It started with Ortmann shocking the U.S. with his first US Open 14.1 title in the 80's, then following up with a second. Then Ralf took the last U.S. Open in NYC.



Fred

When did Ortmann win a second U.S. Open 14.1 title? I thought it was Ortmann in '89 over Mizerak in the final, then Sigel in '92 over Dallas West, then Souquet in 2000 over Min-Wai Chin.

 

[Krassi]

When did Ortmann win a second U.S. Open 14.1 title? I thought it was Ortmann in '89 over Mizerak in the final, then Sigel in '92 over Dallas West, then Souquet in 2000 over Min-Wai Chin.

Ortmann won the second U.S. Open 14.1 title in 1993.

But back to topic:

In Germany we play 14.1 in all national leagues beside 8-ball and 9-ball. And it is common that we count the average per inning (safety included) in 14.1. Thorsten Hohmann had an average of 50 points per inning at the European Championships 2005 (over the hole tournament!!!).