15-Ball Pool and Billiards Tournament

JAM

JAM

I am the storm
Silver Member
The expediency of holding a 15-ball pool tournament has been discussed for months in billiard circles.

It is now announced that O'Connor Brothers, who organized the tournament in 1878, which first brought Wahlstrom before the New York public, are making preparations for holding a similar tournament at an early date.

Five hundred dollars in money prizes will be awarded. It will be expected that Wahlstrom, "Al" Lambert, "Lew" Morris, Knot of Jersey City, Jacob Schaefer or his brother Charles Schaefer, "Gleason's" Morris, "Lon" Morris, and Eugene Carter will enter.

It is possible that the present pool champion, Samuel F. Knight, may also become a competitor. While these preparations are on foot, Billiard Champion Jacob Schaefer and ex-Champion William Sexton are practicing for their match at the new "champion's game" of billiards. The game is fixed for the evening of the 22nd. It will be played in Tammany Hall for the Collender Championship Badge and a money stake of $1,000.

Somebody sent me a link to the above-referenced article from The New York Times, published April 7, 1880. Though I am not familiar with any of the players' names, I thought some pool aficionados may have heard of the Schaefers and William Sexton.

The money payouts then aren't much different than a regional tournament today, 120 years later. :o

I was wondering what 15-ball Pool was, thinking it might be 15-ball rotation, but I'm not sure. Could this be straight pool?

In another article from this era, it states: George F. Slosson has challenged Jacob Schaefer to play a game of billiards for the " Collender badge" and the championship of America....

I am curious as to what the Collender badge is and would very much like to see a picture of it and add it to my personal collection of pool pics. I'm not sure one even exists anymore. Back then, I guess instead of tin cups, pool players won this Collender badge. :p

From reading these older pool news articles, I discoverd the "Brunswick" name in Brunswick-Balke-Collender company from the 1920s. I'm thinking Collender must have been here before Brunswick, but maybe not. I'm still reading and learning.

If anybody has a picture of that badge, please share! I wonder if one even still exists today, and if so, how much it would be worth! TIA! :)

JAM
 
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Here's a TAR Challenge match of the 1880s: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B01EEDC1F3AE533A25757C2A9679C94609FD7CF

It seemed that these challenge matches were the "norm" during this era, with the stake being $250 to $500. That was BIG money then. I don't know what the conversion would be in today's dollars. They call it "$250 a side," instead of $250 a set.

The article talks about "stake-holders" instead of "stakehorses," and discusses the betting and challenges made between various players, detailing the logistics, so that folks can watch. :)

Intersting that the gambling or "challenge matches" of pool made the newspaper in the 1880s. :D

JAM
 
More Billiards Than Ever

Wow. "More Billiards Than Ever" is the title of this 1888 article from The New York Times. It's hard to believe that pool has taken a nosedive in popularity from then to now, 120 years later.

Here is the link: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9407E7DB143AE033A25755C0A9609C94699FD7CF

This article explains:

Proprietors of the large PUBLIC billiard parlors -- Public? -- "have of late years considered that their business has been injuried by the growing popularity of the game in clubs and private houses, claiming that the prevailing tendency among amateurs to do their practicing at their clubs has withdrawn a large proportion of the ordinary patronage from the public rooms...There is a very natural explanation for the condition of things. In the club, the game has been patronized almost exclusively by players who had become more or less expert, and who to a great extent monopolized the necessarily meager facilities of their clubs....

From then to today, what happened to pool? How did it drop to the bottom of the sports totem pole? :(

JAM
 
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JAM said:
be 15-ball rotation, but I'm not sure. Could this be straight pool?
Click to expand...
15-ball pool pre-dated 14.1. It's scored the same way as Rotation, but it's not (it wasn't) a rotation game. First to 61 points won. According to Shamos and the History of Billiards, it was *the* championship game prior to changing the scoring format to "one point per ball."

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
15-ball pool pre-dated 14.1. It's scored the same way as Rotation, but it's not (it wasn't) a rotation game. First to 61 points won. According to Shamos and the History of Billiards, it was *the* championship game prior to changing the scoring format to "one point per ball."

Fred
Click to expand...

Well, if anyone would have known this bit of pool trivia, I'd suspect it would be you, Fred! :D

Thanks for sharing that tidbit. I had not heard of that before. :o

In one of the above-referenced articles, a player made a high run of 23. I was thinking of straight pool and thinking that a run of 23 isn't so great. LOL! Now it makes more sense! :)

JAM
 
JAM said:
Well, if anyone would have known this bit of pool trivia, I'd suspect it would be you, Fred! :D

Thanks for sharing that tidbit. I had not heard of that before. :o

In one of the above-referenced articles, a player made a high run of 23. I was thinking of straight pool and thinking that a run of 23 isn't so great. LOL! Now it makes more sense! :)

JAM
Click to expand...

Jennie

You may also want to look at this thread from the Straight Pool Forum -

The Birth Of Straight Pool

there is a lot of people with fantastic historical information that post over there (Bob Jewett, Ray Martin, Grady, poolshark52, cardiackid,George Fels, etc) - it's a goldmine of pool information.
 
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Blackjack said:
Jennie

You may also want to look at this thread from the Straight Pool Forum -

The Birth Of Straight Pool

there is a lot of people with fantastic historical information that post over there (Bob Jewett, Ray Martin, Grady, poolshark52, cardiackid,George Fels, etc) - it's a goldmine of pool information.
Click to expand...

Ray Martin posts on AzBilliards? I did not know that. Wow! :)

Who is Poolshark52, or is his identity to remain private? :confused:

Of course, Bob Jewett and George Fels are known in the pool media for their well-written articles. I do enjoy reading their words of wisdom.

You know you've hit the big time when you are recognized with a one-word name, like "Grady," much like "Cher" or "Madonna." When we mention Grady's name, we only have to say "Grady," and everybody knows who we're talking about. ;)

Thanks for the info. I'm going to go check it out. :p

JAM
 
Cornerman said:
15-ball pool pre-dated 14.1. It's scored the same way as Rotation, but it's not (it wasn't) a rotation game. First to 61 points won. According to Shamos and the History of Billiards, it was *the* championship game prior to changing the scoring format to "one point per ball."

Fred
Click to expand...

Seriously? Sounds like the easiest game to run out in of all pool games I've ever heard of. I guess the emphasis was on never leaving a loose ball for your opponent to shoot. First one to execute a successful break shot is out.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
Seriously? Sounds like the easiest game to run out in of all pool games I've ever heard of. I guess the emphasis was on never leaving a loose ball for your opponent to shoot. First one to execute a successful break shot is out.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

I read in one of those articles -- I can't remember which one -- that some of the pool tables from this era were 6-by-12's! :eek:


JAM
 
JAM said:
Ray Martin posts on AzBilliards? I did not know that. Wow! :)

Who is Poolshark52, or is his identity to remain private? :confused:

Of course, Bob Jewett and George Fels are known in the pool media for their well-written articles. I do enjoy reading their words of wisdom.

You know you've hit the big time when you are recognized with a one-word name, like "Grady," much like "Cher" or "Madonna." When we mention Grady's name, we only have to say "Grady," and everybody knows who we're talking about. ;)

Thanks for the info. I'm going to go check it out. :p

JAM
Click to expand...

Ray Martin posts as "ghostball"... he mainly posts in the straight pool forum, but he has posted in the main forum many times.

Poolshark52 is Pat Howey - a great 14.1 player - recently ran a billion balls up there in Rochester, NY - lol

Both Ray Martin and Pat Howey live in Largo, Florida.

It should be outlawed to use the names "Madonna" and "Grady" in the same sentence for obvious reasons.

:p
 
JAM said:
The expediency of holding a 15-ball pool tournament has been discussed for months in billiard circles.

It is now announced that O'Connor Brothers, who organized the tournament in 1878, which first brought Wahlstrom before the New York public, are making preparations for holding a similar tournament at an early date.

Five hundred dollars in money prizes will be awarded. It will be expected that Wahlstrom, "Al" Lambert, "Lew" Morris, Knot of Jersey City, Jacob Schaefer or his brother Charles Schaefer, "Gleason's" Morris, "Lon" Morris, and Eugene Carter will enter.

It is possible that the present pool champion, Samuel F. Knight, may also become a competitor. While these preparations are on foot, Billiard Champion Jacob Schaefer and ex-Champion William Sexton are practicing for their match at the new "champion's game" of billiards. The game is fixed for the evening of the 22nd. It will be played in Tammany Hall for the Collender Championship Badge and a money stake of $1,000.

Somebody sent me a link to the above-referenced article from The New York Times, published April 7, 1880. Though I am not familiar with any of the players' names, I thought some pool aficionados may have heard of the Schaefers and William Sexton.

The money payouts then aren't much different than a regional tournament today, 120 years later. :o

I was wondering what 15-ball Pool was, thinking it might be 15-ball rotation, but I'm not sure. Could this be straight pool?

In another article from this era, it states: George F. Slosson has challenged Jacob Schaefer to play a game of billiards for the " Collender badge" and the championship of America....

I am curious as to what the Collender badge is and would very much like to see a picture of it and add it to my personal collection of pool pics. I'm not sure one even exists anymore. Back then, I guess instead of tin cups, pool players won this Collender badge. :p

From reading these older pool news articles, I discoverd the "Brunswick" name in Brunswick-Balke-Collender company from the 1920s. I'm thinking Collender must have been here before Brunswick, but maybe not. I'm still reading and learning.

If anybody has a picture of that badge, please share! I wonder if one even still exists today, and if so, how much it would be worth! TIA! :)

JAM
Click to expand...

Jennie,
Several points that may help you here.

The "Collender" badge is properly called the "Brunswick-Balke-Collender Emblem". It was permanently "retired" in 1918 after Frank Taberski (March 15, 1889-October 23, 1941) defended his World Championship 10 consecutive times in CHALLENGE MATCHES. He went on to defend it 20 consecutive times, but the "Emblem" was retired when it was given to him after his 10th match win. That had never been done before. When B-B-C first made their "emblem" it was to be given to the first person who could defend their World Championship 10 times, so Taberski earned it and B-B-C opted not to make another one. I don't remember if I have a picture of it or not, but it was a ruby and diamond studded gold medal with the Brunswick-Balke-Collender" name engraved on it.

In those days, the champion was "challenged" by an opponent who could put up his part of the prize fund. Although there were tournaments also, Taberski's main strength was he was all but unbeatable in challenge matches. He felt that in tournament play to 100, 125 or 150 points, luck could play a factor and so they were not true tests of championship skill.
In a CHALLENGE match, however, play consisted of nightly blocks of races to 450 - 600. They were usually races to 1,500 and the last day, they would just race to 1,500 after keeping their cumulative scores. Play was over 3 or 4 nights and it was generally accepted that this long race really proved who was the better player.


Taberski's 1st 10 challenge match victories included 5 over former or future World Champions. The competition, in order, was Johnny Layton, the 1916 World Champ, the super great Ralph Greenleaf, Edward Ralph (the 1912 Champ), James Maturo, the 1912 runner up (he never won the WC), Louis Kreuter,the great Bennie Allen, who was a 6 time WC, Larry Stoutenburg, Joe Concannon, Kreuter again and Greenleaf again. Only Kreuter was not considered "world class" and that was due largely to eye problems, not necessarily lack of ability.

Taberski still holds the record of being 20-0 in challenge matches. And only Alfredo deOro, Ralph Greenleaf and Willie Mosconi were champions more times than Taberski's 15.

I have lots of info on Taberski, but not as much on some of the other players you mentioned.

I know that Gothard Wahlstron (or Wahlstrom, I've seen it spelled both ways) was the World Champion in Aug 1878, Oct 1879, May 1880, Jan 1881 & June 1881. He was runner up in Apr 1879 & Feb 1880.

Samuel F. Knight won the WC in Apr 1879, Feb 1880 and was runner up in April 1878 to Cyrille Dion in the very first World Championship. He was runner up again in Aug 1879 and May 1880.

George Slosson (1854-1949) died at age 95 after having started playing at age 8, so he had what, 87 years experience playing pool!

The Schaefer's (Jake Sr and Jake Jr) were World Champions primarily 18.1 and 18.2 Balkline Billiards but they were also great in 3 cushion billiards, especially Jr.
Jacob Schaefer Sr was born on Feb 2, 1855 and died on March 8, 1910.
Jacob Schaefer Jr was born on Oct 18, 1894 and died on November 10, 1875.
I have lots on info on both the Schaefer's if you need more.
 
Terry Ardeno said:
Jennie,
Several points that may help you here.

The "Collender" badge is properly called the "Brunswick-Balke-Collender Emblem". It was permanently "retired" in 1918 after Frank Taberski (March 15, 1889-October 23, 1941) defended his World Championship 10 consecutive times in CHALLENGE MATCHES. He went on to defend it 20 consecutive times, but the "Emblem" was retired when it was given to him after his 10th match win. That had never been done before. When B-B-C first made their "emblem" it was to be given to the first person who could defend their World Championship 10 times, so Taberski earned it and B-B-C opted not to make another one. I don't remember if I have a picture of it or not, but it was a ruby and diamond studded gold medal with the Brunswick-Balke-Collender" name engraved on it.

In those days, the champion was "challenged" by an opponent who could put up his part of the prize fund. Although there were tournaments also, Taberski's main strength was he was all but unbeatable in challenge matches. He felt that in tournament play to 100, 125 or 150 points, luck could play a factor and so they were not true tests of championship skill.
In a CHALLENGE match, however, play consisted of nightly blocks of races to 450 - 600. They were usually races to 1,500 and the last day, they would just race to 1,500 after keeping their cumulative scores. Play was over 3 or 4 nights and it was generally accepted that this long race really proved who was the better player.


Taberski's 1st 10 challenge match victories included 5 over former or future World Champions. The competition, in order, was Johnny Layton, the 1916 World Champ, the super great Ralph Greenleaf, Edward Ralph (the 1912 Champ), James Maturo, the 1912 runner up (he never won the WC), Louis Kreuter,the great Bennie Allen, who was a 6 time WC, Larry Stoutenburg, Joe Concannon, Kreuter again and Greenleaf again. Only Kreuter was not considered "world class" and that was due largely to eye problems, not necessarily lack of ability.

Taberski still holds the record of being 20-0 in challenge matches. And only Alfredo deOro, Ralph Greenleaf and Willie Mosconi were champions more times than Taberski's 15.

I have lots of info on Taberski, but not as much on some of the other players you mentioned.

I know that Gothard Wahlstron (or Wahlstrom, I've seen it spelled both ways) was the World Champion in Aug 1878, Oct 1879, May 1880, Jan 1881 & June 1881. He was runner up in Apr 1879 & Feb 1880.

Samuel F. Knight won the WC in Apr 1879, Feb 1880 and was runner up in April 1878 to Cyrille Dion in the very first World Championship. He was runner up again in Aug 1879 and May 1880.

George Slosson (1854-1949) died at age 95 after having started playing at age 8, so he had what, 87 years experience playing pool!

The Schaefer's (Jake Sr and Jake Jr) were World Champions primarily 18.1 and 18.2 Balkline Billiards but they were also great in 3 cushion billiards, especially Jr.
Jacob Schaefer Sr was born on Feb 2, 1855 and died on March 8, 1910.
Jacob Schaefer Jr was born on Oct 18, 1894 and died on November 10, 1875.
I have lots on info on both the Schaefer's if you need more.
Click to expand...

Wow, Terry, that's a lot of great pool info right there. Thanks so much for sharing that on the thread.

Now I must see what that badge looked like. I wonder who has it, if it even still exists. What a find that would be. :)

I doubt it will ever show up on eBay, but one never knows. One man's junk can truly be another man's treasure. ;)

JAM
 
JAM said:
In one of the above-referenced articles, a player made a high run of 23. I was thinking of straight pool and thinking that a run of 23 isn't so great. LOL! Now it makes more sense! :)

JAM
Click to expand...


Not to me. I'm terribly confused here.
Is it 23 balls in order (rotation) or did someone break and run 23 balls while keeping the numerical number to get to 61 first.
I don't understand something here.
 
Andrew Manning said:
Seriously? Sounds like the easiest game to run out in of all pool games I've ever heard of. I guess the emphasis was on never leaving a loose ball for your opponent to shoot. First one to execute a successful break shot is out.

-Andrew
Click to expand...
I'd guess at a safety break. And since this was a new version of billiard game, it may have simply been short lived start to the game as a tournament sport.

Fred
 
grandpapkusky said:
Not to me. I'm terribly confused here.
Is it 23 balls in order (rotation) or did someone break and run 23 balls while keeping the numerical number to get to 61 first.
I don't understand something here.
Click to expand...
I don't see the reference. I see a reference to a 35 run, but that's in cushion caroms.

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
I don't see the reference. I see a reference to a 35 run, but that's in cushion caroms.

Fred
Click to expand...


Fred,
I was quoting JAM in post number 5. That's where the 23 came from that I quoted. Any help deciphering this would be apprecaited.
 
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