1st experience playing "Pro cut" pockets...Good Lord!

B

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
I've only been playing pool for about 7 months and am learning on an 8-ft table that has nice, generous pockets.

But this week I had my first experience playing on Diamond 9-ft and 7-ft tables while in Las Vegas (thanks to AZers who recommended Best Billiards in Las Vegas -- great people there).

Holy Cow! How do you guys pocket a ball? The first night on the 9-footer was a complete disaster. Those pockets were like narrow tunnels and I was missing easy shots. Any cut shot that got near a pocket just rattled around. I guess it is best described as a character building experience :eek:

The second night was a little better since I had the good sense to play on a 7-ft table. In fact it started to feel pretty comfortable after about an hour. Same size pockets but more room for error since the ball wasn't traveling the length of a football field to get to the pocket. I actually had some 4-5 ball runs (8-ball) which is good for me on a table with generous pockets.

It was also my first experience on Simonis cloth. Much faster than the cloth I'm used to. I didn't think the cue ball would ever stop rolling!

But the highlight of the night was while I was waiting for my taxi I sat down to watch two good players on a 9-ft table. I thought I recognized one of them, and sure enough it was Max Eberle. Since they were pretty focused on the game I just said a quick hello and thanked him for the great videos he's put on youtube. Up to this point I've only seen pros on youtube.com or streaming; but it's incredible to watch two really good players live. :thumbup:

Best of all was this morning when I returned to the 8-ft table with generous pockets, I was pocketing balls better than before.
 
Welcome to the competitive world of pool!! Any major event you go to the tables will have pro cut pockets. Personally I love them because they (usually) only except very well hit shots and allow very little slop. Slop like rubbing rails a diamond in front of the pocket or hitting the corners with pocket speed and have them dribble in. Had my first experinece with a 9 foot AMF table last weekend. The pockets werent pro cut but they spit out a bunch of well hit shots!! So when it comes down to it its the player and not the table. You have to adjust :p
 
bdorman said:
I've only been playing pool for about 7 months and am learning on an 8-ft table that has nice, generous pockets.

But this week I had my first experience playing on Diamond 9-ft and 7-ft tables while in Las Vegas (thanks to AZers who recommended Best Billiards in Las Vegas -- great people there).

Holy Cow! How do you guys pocket a ball? The first night on the 9-footer was a complete disaster. Those pockets were like narrow tunnels and I was missing easy shots. Any cut shot that got near a pocket just rattled around. I guess it is best described as a character building experience :eek:

The second night was a little better since I had the good sense to play on a 7-ft table. In fact it started to feel pretty comfortable after about an hour. Same size pockets but more room for error since the ball wasn't traveling the length of a football field to get to the pocket. I actually had some 4-5 ball runs (8-ball) which is good for me on a table with generous pockets.

It was also my first experience on Simonis cloth. Much faster than the cloth I'm used to. I didn't think the cue ball would ever stop rolling!

But the highlight of the night was while I was waiting for my taxi I sat down to watch two good players on a 9-ft table. I thought I recognized one of them, and sure enough it was Max Eberle. Since they were pretty focused on the game I just said a quick hello and thanked him for the great videos he's put on youtube. Up to this point I've only seen pros on youtube.com or streaming; but it's incredible to watch two really good players live. :thumbup:

Best of all was this morning when I returned to the 8-ft table with generous pockets, I was pocketing balls better than before.
Click to expand...

Playing on the 9' tables will definitely improve your game as it takes more FOCUS & you definely get more focused when U r missing what seems to be all of your shots. If U think a 9 footer is a football field U should play on a 10 footer if U r able to find one It literally looks the size of a driveway. Good Luck in your developement & welcome to the game. Play on the big tight tables as often as you can.
 
Itoo dislike wide pockets. They only benefit the lesser player. I like to play on double shimed tables and have shot on triple shimed, they will make you cuss.
But you only will get better at cutting balls to the center of the pocket by playing on tight tables. I play mostly one pocket so the tighter the pockets the easier it is to get balls out of pockets. Playing 1 hole on wide pockets suck because you just have to give up the ballthats in the jaws instead of getting it out.---Smitty
 
I think "Pro Cut" pockets are terrible for pool in general. Especially for beginners, Its so hard I believe some people dot pocket enough balls and lose interest. Pool is difficult enough already.


Here is a little history of "Pro Cut" pockets that I seen in my time in pool rooms.


Since Simonis showed up in the late 80's (88 as i recall) peoples game all jumped up some because they can move the rock easier. The CB can roll longer with less effort and less stroke, A big advantage to players with a lesser stroke. I had recently had this conversation with Nick Varner at lunch for 90 minutes. Nick said his game went up a little and guys 2,3,4 levels below him really moved up in speed. I wish i was in the 2,3,4 level below his speed, I'm clearly not. Yet my game did jump up lots back then(on 760) I was a C player, all of a sudden pool was more fun to play. And the same held true for most everyone, the top pros did play a little better but the guys right below them really came up. And thats ok, just Nick's observation as well as mine.


As a result of the faster cloth and guys like JA, Busty, Buddy running out sets 10,11 racks often the rooms responded by making the "Players tables a bit tighter". There usually was one of the front tables shimmed up for the one pocket players in most real pool rooms before fast cloth. After fast cloth the pockets all got the squeeze. But too slow down 9 ball run outs the rooms responded by making the pockets tighter(and then 10 bal to slow things down more). I remember watching Kim Davenport playing $2000 races to 11 of 9 ball, he was playing (I want to say Keith but it wasnt-i really dont remember) someone even and when either player missed the 5 or 6 ball, as long as the balls were open and nothing funny they would wipe the table and rack the balls, it was a waste of time to putt in 3,4,5 balls if they were wide open. and they were betting lots for those days!! 89 as i recall in Sacramento. Huge pockets and 760 who cant run 4 balls on a cosmo??


Rewind to 99. I put a GC4 in my house and disappeared from the pool scene, I had Ernesto put 4 3/8" pockets on my table and i didnt go to the pool room for 10 years-so to speak. I played enough to keep what speed I had and thats it. When i cam back to pool, I kept hearing "Pro cut Pockets". I knew what it meant. And I knew why but IMO its not good for pool.

Fast forwards to last month, i spent a month in Munich Germany, I have spent about a year there in the past 6 years. they still have big pockets on the tables. I was playing a guy I met 2-3 times a week and we play even, he started talking about "Cheating the pocket", I hadnt heard someone say that in a very long time. It was fun to ba able to pick the spot in the pocket you want to aim at and build the angle of deflection(is that the right word?) the angle the CB comes off the OB & cushion to play shape for your next shot. For me thats a big part of pool and is minimized if not eliminated by pro cut pockets.


Rewind a to last fall or there about, i went into Hardtimes in Bellflower, i was talking to a few guys on the rail there and they are all old school rail birds they complained that when they tightened up ALL the players tables the action dropped off considerably, I wasnt there so that might be the case or they might just like to complain(thats a rail bird thing;)).


What ever the case I think small pockets are great for one pocket & champions. I also firmly believe they are bad for pool, makes it to difficult and less fun. If I want to shoot center pocket every shot, fine-I'll go play snooker. Cheating the pocket is a big part of pool and thats been reduced down to a bare minimum with tight holes. I blame fast cloth, you can bet you wont see that disappear. Bad for pool


best
eric:)

PS: i'm out of stroke writing and am trying to get back at it, not very happy with this post. I made my point but not written as well as I hoped, i didnt edit. thanks

Edit: I did re edit a few things and added a couple sentences, still not too good. This is a big topic IMO and needs a longer post, like I said Nick and I talked 90 about this and it wasnt repetitive, We both shared what we saw and to my surprise we saw the same thing. that was cool I thought. I like Nick. He is one of my pool hero's, now I know him very good so i'm used to talking to him, but still to see something like he did is a cool feeling.
 
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I just reread the OP and his last sentence says it all:

I'll paraphrase what he said: he was glad to get back to a easier box,



that keeps people who are learning coming back, not pocketing balls because of overly difficult equipment is another nail in the pool coffin. Pool has enough troubles, making tables harder is death for pool. The 10' Box's Diamond is building is the future for pro pool(perhaps) and thats great. but room owners need to make their equipment easy to keep people playing. in the UK there are "Club" snooker tables and "Tournemnt" tables-huge difference. i hope the room owners are keen enough here to see that, and make their tables playabel and stop coping what the pro's are playing on to accommodate a few people who watch the pros. cater to the bangers and masses not the 450 people who watch a stream..


Is there a National association of pool room owners?? Not the BCA, just a room owners association? There needs to be one. I think room owners need to get together and have a summit and figure out a few things. Customer retention being the topic of the day and making pool fun. Easy tables. not duplicate whats on a Pro match. Think about it, that like making all the dumb bells in a gym weigh 160 pounds each cause thats what the pros toss around. Same difference as my dad used to say. pro pockets, pro dumb bells. imaqgine a gym where all the weights are 160pounds or more. thats like having a room with all pro cut pockets(and yes there are rooms like that). to me its that stupid.

ok soap box is put away, but i'm right!!!
 
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Harold Smith said:
I play mostly one pocket so the tighter the pockets the easier it is to get balls out of pockets. Playing 1 hole on wide pockets suck because you just have to give up the ballthats in the jaws instead of getting it out.---Smitty
Click to expand...


i agree for one hole 4" pockets are too big, 3 7/8" are good.
 
Getting my long awaited 9' Anniversary installed within a month. I opted for 4 7/8". Certainly not pro cut, but I'd be curious as to the member opinions on this pocket sizing,,,
 
Very good point fatboy,
back in the day, when I used to play, there were two sides to a pocket and you chose the side based on position, that certainly has been minimized now.

And there are a couple tables where I play that are brutal, but good for one hole:D
 
When I was first up and coming, I progressed quite a bit
faster than my friends who all started playing at the same time.
I lived behind a bar and one night a guy came in looking to see
if there was any interest in joining the local pool league. A few
of my friends and I decided to join and after getting my head
handed to me on a silver platter the first half of the year, I went
out and bought a "custom" pool cue. :O
It was a Sailor cue, but I soon graduated to a Runde-era Schon.
The league was scored by receiving 2 points for a win, plus an
additional point for each of your opponent's balls that remained
on the table once you successfully pocketed the 8 ball, a total
of 9 points per game was possible. We played 5 man teams, 3
games each, and by the end of that first year I was tied for the
top score for an individual night's play with 24 points. The love
affair began! From there, one of my teammates who was much
more experienced than I was taught me a little secret that we
used to create quite a bit of pocket power. We would go to the
local pool hall a couple of hours before our match, and we would
play on a snooker table with regular sized pool balls. You were
lucky if you made a dozen shots or so. But when we got to the
league, which was played on 7ft bar boxes, it seemed like the
pockets were sewer covers, they were that big! So a lesson for
the OP, practice on a big table when you can, it will make your
shot percentage go up dramatically...
 
Exactly how big are Pro Cut pockets??

DSC00095.jpg
 
bdorman said:
...when I returned to the 8-ft table with generous pockets, I was pocketing balls better than before.
Click to expand...
If you want to keep (and improve) that edge, you need to start aiming at your generous pockets as if they're smaller.

One way is to aim at pocket facings rather than at the whole pocket - challenge yourself during practice to call each shot, not just to go in the pocket, but to hit a chosen pocket facing on its way in.

Just say "left" or "right" to yourself each shot and see if you can hit the pocket facing on that side (I usually choose the side that increases the cut angle).

You'll be surprised how quickly you start succeeding at this, and at how much bigger pockets start to look to you.

pj
chgo
 
Bob 14:1 said:
Getting my long awaited 9' Anniversary installed within a month. I opted for 4 7/8". Certainly not pro cut, but I'd be curious as to the member opinions on this pocket sizing,,,
Click to expand...

It's not ALL about the size of the pocket but where the shelf of the slate is cut, deep or shallow. You need to consider the slate cut when choosing the pocket size. Also as stated earlier & I'll paraphrase, if you want everyone to have fun then bigger pockets. If you want to improve your stroke & get better then smaller but not TOO small of a pocket. Enjoy the table I wish I had a room big enough for a 9 footer. I have a Brunswick Sport King 90" x 45" playing surface. It's nice but a 9 footer would be better. Again enjoy the table.
 
I agree that tighter pockets make one a better player...but I also have to agree with Fatboy that making the game so difficult scares away the general public.

We've got about 18 players that use the 8-footer (generous pockets) at our community center. I can say with certainty that only a few of them (and me) would continue playing if we got a table with pockets as tight as the Diamonds. Like most people, they just play for fun; and it's no fun if every one of your shots hangs up in the pocket.

BTW, no one in the group is under 60 so vision plays a big role in it too.
 
I feel ya. The first time I played on diamonds I knew what to expect, but it was still kind of like... "wtf, I can't make a ball. This is lame". They looked so small and I kept thinking about the pocket constantly while shooting.

Later I got a little used to it, and now I can shoot most shots without the constant mental chatter (you know... "gotta hit the center of the hole. can't bobble this one. Don't let it hit the rail or point on the way in. Don't slam it or it'll spit it out").

Still fear rail shots that need speed. And I do feel a little pissy when a ball stays out that I know would drop on a more generous table. But I try to suck it up.

The common wisdom on here is that shooting on these tight pockets will make you more accurate.
Just keep in mind... needing more accuracy is not the same as getting more accuracy, any more than needing money = getting money.
 
Bob 14:1 said:
Getting my long awaited 9' Anniversary installed within a month. I opted for 4 7/8". Certainly not pro cut, but I'd be curious as to the member opinions on this pocket sizing,,,
Click to expand...

IMO, too big for home if you are going to be the main user of the table.

Freddie <~~~ but agrees with Fatboy
 
I enjoy playing on tighter, less forgiving tables because when I go somewhere that has big pockets, it's like cheating. Fatboy is right though, one of the many factors that hurt our local pool hall was the pro cut Olhausen tables. It's just not fun for the weaker players at all
 
bdorman said:
I've only been playing pool for about 7 months and am learning on an 8-ft table that has nice, generous pockets.

But this week I had my first experience playing on Diamond 9-ft and 7-ft tables while in Las Vegas (thanks to AZers who recommended Best Billiards in Las Vegas -- great people there).

Holy Cow! How do you guys pocket a ball? The first night on the 9-footer was a complete disaster. Those pockets were like narrow tunnels and I was missing easy shots. Any cut shot that got near a pocket just rattled around. I guess it is best described as a character building experience :eek:

The second night was a little better since I had the good sense to play on a 7-ft table. In fact it started to feel pretty comfortable after about an hour. Same size pockets but more room for error since the ball wasn't traveling the length of a football field to get to the pocket. I actually had some 4-5 ball runs (8-ball) which is good for me on a table with generous pockets.

It was also my first experience on Simonis cloth. Much faster than the cloth I'm used to. I didn't think the cue ball would ever stop rolling!

But the highlight of the night was while I was waiting for my taxi I sat down to watch two good players on a 9-ft table. I thought I recognized one of them, and sure enough it was Max Eberle. Since they were pretty focused on the game I just said a quick hello and thanked him for the great videos he's put on youtube. Up to this point I've only seen pros on youtube.com or streaming; but it's incredible to watch two really good players live. :thumbup:

Best of all was this morning when I returned to the 8-ft table with generous pockets, I was pocketing balls better than before.
Click to expand...


I see this all the time at the DCC: guys who are used to playing on softer equipment hitting the rails on the way to the pockets. They quickly find out they can't do that on the Diamonds.

Lou Figueroa
 
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