2 APA Questions
- Thread starter Mike Templeton
- Start date
Flettir said:
Cueball fouls only specifically refers to scenarios where an object ball is accidentally moved. From the looks of it, when he used the 5-ball as the cueball, it wasn't an accident.
There is no question the balls are not restored here. The lenient way to go is to call a foul and award the incoming player BIH. If this were the ruling, I'd probably tell the ref he should keep his day job. Beyond that, there is loss of game, loss of match and expulsion from the tournament. The level of play should determine which would be most appropriate. Obviously, if this is the budweiser king of the hill jack & jill Valentines day scotch doubles tournament, by all means, restore and continue play. If this is the US Open, he should be kicked out of the event.
If the guy was that hooked on hitting the 2 ball just to get a hit, and wanted to take the 2-9 combo out of play, why not just drive the cue into the ball he was hooked on to begin with, and drive it down into the 2 and 9? If the 9 drops at that point, it just gets spotted and play continues with the opponent getting BIH.
There's a chance this guy knew that what he did was unsportsmanlike (as far as in a rules-definition-sense) but then again, he may well have thought it was a legit tactic to take away the combo and give up BIH. He had the right idea, just the wrong idea on how to do it.
Consider that the situation was odd enough that Mike had to post about it to get some opinions.
There's a chance this guy knew that what he did was unsportsmanlike (as far as in a rules-definition-sense) but then again, he may well have thought it was a legit tactic to take away the combo and give up BIH. He had the right idea, just the wrong idea on how to do it.
Consider that the situation was odd enough that Mike had to post about it to get some opinions.
My feeling is that it was accidental in that he 'thought' he was making a smart foul but did so incorrectly.
It would take some interpretation but it seems like that would have to be explained to the player , the balls moved would have to replaced to thier original locations and then ball in hand to the incoming player.
IMO.
It would take some interpretation but it seems like that would have to be explained to the player , the balls moved would have to replaced to thier original locations and then ball in hand to the incoming player.
IMO.
Ballls should have been put back in place and give the player a warning. However If I was the incoming player Usually I would welcome such a move because this might allow me to get more points rather then just the 2 the nine is worth. If I only needed two points then I would protest.
Sometimes when I am hooked and see a very little chance to hit the next ball in line then I will use the cueball to roll the nine up so that a combination is hard to avoid for my opponent. Allowing him only the 2 points and take my chances on his next break.
Sometimes when I am hooked and see a very little chance to hit the next ball in line then I will use the cueball to roll the nine up so that a combination is hard to avoid for my opponent. Allowing him only the 2 points and take my chances on his next break.
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Anybody here who thinks using the 5-ball as the cueball is acceptable is out of their mind. I'm serious, I can't believe so many people believe the balls should be restored as though nothing happened. This is a tournament. There should be a reasonable expectation that the rules are already known. If I'm the ref and being nice, the guy will lose that game. If I were the opposing player, that would be a reasonable ruling in my opinion.
Jude Rosenstock said:
I overlooked the "tournament" part of the question and figured it was league play. I would say I have to agree with Jude's statement now. Definite loss of game regardless of whose rules are being used. If it were just the 5-ball that was moved, then I could see maybe respotting it only after both players agreed upon it and with BIH. Sounds like a poor loser.
Mike Templeton said:
OK , so if it's so simple then just post the APA rule that directly covers this situation.
Discussion over.
FLICKit said:
I would NEVER use a tactic like that!!!! Like I said in my post, I DO NOT condone of his actions (I also stated later in the post that it was WRONGLY done). I believe what he did was pure B.S.!!!! Unsportsmanlike is too kind of a word for it. What I was meaning to convey in my post is that the shooter knew that he was gonna lose that game anyways and simply tried something bizarre (and YES, unsportsmanlike) to see what he could get away with. Very low-class IMO.
Maniac
It's not league play. I'm gonna call the APA operator in the area tonight and see if she knows of a specific APA rule to cover the situation.dabarbr said:
Mike
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Mike...Under APA rules, even 9-ball tournament play is still played the same way as 9-ball league play (unless specified as something different, by the TD). Consequently, as dabarbr mentioned, dunning the shooter a "loss-of-game" penalty, for a sportsmanship violation, has little overall consequence. The incoming shooter would simply break the next rack, and continue his/her attempt to reach their S/L point limit, to win the match. Loss of match, on the other hand, would sufficiently penalize the offending player, such that they would be unlikely to try that "move" again! JMO
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Mike Templeton said:
dabarbr said:
Well, some sort of penalty equalling a full game will need to be issued. Perhaps 10 points. Flagrant fouls in straight pool are worth an entire rack - 15 points.
Scott,Scott Lee said:
It's actually a weekly tournament, race to 5. We just use APA rules, so there is no point system or anything. Just whoever gets 5 games first, so if the score is 4-4, that's where it might get hairy if something like this happened.
Jude Rosenstock said:
By flagrant foul, you don't just mean a deliberate one? Cause I have seen many pro matches where people just tick the cueball and take a -1. For things like whacking into the balls with your hands to spread them I can see a -15.
Shooting a deliberate foul in 9 or 8 ball can be part of strategy (say play to not hit a rail, ), but I think once you go a step further and hit an OB as the CB, that "may" head into a flagrant foul. That may be up to the director or ref however. Is hitting the wrong ball gently better than whacking at it full force? Is one just a "deliberate" foul and the other "flagrant"? Unless it's in the rules with all sorts of scenarios, that type of thing would be mainly a judgment call, granted one that should be made by an experienced ref.
are they scoring the tournament by APA rules or simply using the rules of play? big difference.
if they're using the points system to handicap, i could see (maybe) the replacement.
if it's a straight race, the rack (at least) is lost.
keep in mind that in tournaments, the TD has the option to rule as he deems fit. sure, the rulebook might say "put 'em back", but i'd like to believe that most TD's, when presented with this, would forfeit the rack.
-s
edit: while i was typing i see my question was answered. there ya go.
if they're using the points system to handicap, i could see (maybe) the replacement.
if it's a straight race, the rack (at least) is lost.
keep in mind that in tournaments, the TD has the option to rule as he deems fit. sure, the rulebook might say "put 'em back", but i'd like to believe that most TD's, when presented with this, would forfeit the rack.
-s
edit: while i was typing i see my question was answered. there ya go.
Hey Steev,steev said:
It's a straight race to 5.
hang-the-9 said:
Flagrant fouls in 14.1 include (but are not limited to) -
Deliberately moving a ball
Catching a ball as it drops in a pocket