2 Rail Kicks

Pool Player

Pool Player

A Padawan Learner
Silver Member
Most of us are familar with the 2 Rail Kick using the 'Plus System' shown below.

Note: Ball, 6, 7, 8 & 9 are no's assigned to the diamonds on the rails. There seems to be a limited amount of text I can imput.

CueTable Help



But what if the situation is reversed? How do you contact the 1?

CueTable Help



Any help?
 
Pool Player said:
Most of us are familar with the 2 Rail Kick using the 'Plus System' shown below.

Note: Ball, 6, 7, 8 & 9 are no's assigned to the diamonds on the rails. There seems to be a limited amount of text I can imput.

CueTable Help



But what if the situation is reversed? How do you contact the 1?

CueTable Help



Any help?
Click to expand...


The quick answer formula is:
find the center between the cue ball and the object ball. Make a line from this center point to the center of the pocket you are going by and then hit the cue ball parallel to the imaginary line.
 
Little Joe has the answer!!

Little Joe's first video on kicking covers this situaton and many more.
www.pooliq.net is the website. Joe is a great teacher with a ton of knowledge, I had the pleasure of spending some time with him at the Derby City last year and learned alot.

Bern
 
Pool Player said:
Most of us are familar with the 2 Rail Kick using the 'Plus System' shown below. ...
But what if the situation is reversed? How do you contact the 1? ...
Click to expand...
The path you ask about is covered by the "corner-5" system, usually, and in that system you would be shooting from 6 and trying to go through 8 (more or less) on the third cushion. That gives you a first rail number of minus 2, which does not exist. This means that you have to abandon the corner-5 and do something tricky, like play without spin or with a little reverse. If I had to play that path, I'd aim just to the right of the outer part of the corner pocket molding and use half a tip (roughly) of right english. Depending on the speed and the table (slow with slippery rails), it might work to use no side spin.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The path you ask about is covered by the "corner-5" system, usually, and in that system you would be shooting from 6 and trying to go through 8 (more or less) on the third cushion. That gives you a first rail number of minus 2, which does not exist. This means that you have to abandon the corner-5 and do something tricky, like play without spin or with a little reverse. If I had to play that path, I'd aim just to the right of the outer part of the corner pocket molding and use half a tip (roughly) of right english. Depending on the speed and the table (slow with slippery rails), it might work to use no side spin.
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting there's not a 3-rail route to hit this ball? Or just that using the 3-rail (corner 5), and playing for the object ball on the 2nd rail is impossible?

If the suggestion to this kick is strictly 2-rails, then I would agree that using a 3-rail system is impossible - but it follows that would also be using the wrong tools. The corner 5 system should be able to direct the CB to the 1B off 3 rails - but it requires 3 rails - correct?

Doesn't the plus system still work here anyway?

Counting from the 1 around the corner to the CB, the number is 3, counting from the opposite corner pocket in half-diamonds, starting with 1 at the corner pocket, 3 is the first rail diamond. Aim through that point, with a little running english should bring the CB down the 1 ball - given the correct speed and english for the table.

CueTable Help

 
Last edited:
stljohnny said:
... The corner 5 system should be able to direct the CB to the 1B off 3 rails - but it requires 3 rails - correct? ...
Click to expand...
The corner-5 is often used to hit a ball after two cushions. The usual requirements are that you want to go towards a particular spot on the third cushion and that you are using running english and that you are going to hit the long rail first. Extensions of the corner-5 also tell you where you are going to hit on the second cushion, so you can aim to hit balls either just before or after the second cushion.
 
6 minus 4 1/2=1 1/2

Let the concept of CTE enter your head then ignore it

aim,at 1 1/2 dimonds use running english,fire
 
Elegant

stljohnny said:
Are you suggesting there's not a 3-rail route to hit this ball? Or just that using the 3-rail (corner 5), and playing for the object ball on the 2nd rail is impossible?

If the suggestion to this kick is strictly 2-rails, then I would agree that using a 3-rail system is impossible - but it follows that would also be using the wrong tools. The corner 5 system should be able to direct the CB to the 1B off 3 rails - but it requires 3 rails - correct?

Doesn't the plus system still work here anyway?

Counting from the 1 around the corner to the CB, the number is 3, counting from the opposite corner pocket in half-diamonds, starting with 1 at the corner pocket, 3 is the first rail diamond. Aim through that point, with a little running english should bring the CB down the 1 ball - given the correct speed and english for the table.

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

Elegant. Thank you

I had been using a method of finding a midpoint between the OB and CB. The modified +2 system is more precise and allows for calibrating the necessary english.
 
stljohnny said:
... Counting from the 1 around the corner to the CB, the number is 3, counting from the opposite corner pocket in half-diamonds, starting with 1 at the corner pocket, 3 is the first rail diamond. Aim through that point, with a little running english should bring the CB down the 1 ball - given the correct speed and english for the table.
Click to expand...
If you think of the shot you have diagrammed as a corner-5 shot, you are shooting from about 5.8 (depending on how you define the CB location) to about 1.0. If you use running english and the table is accurate for the corner-5, the cue ball is expected to hit the third cushion just on your side of the side pocket (going through 4.8). On a table I often play on, the ball will hit on the other side of the side pocket (to the left of it in the diagram).

I think that to get the pattern you illustrate, you have to use either no side spin or reverse depending on the table. I'll try it as soon as I get a chance, but perhaps others can report on what they have to do to get the diagrammed path.
 
Bob is dead on in post #4. I tried this shot 20 times today. It cannot be hit without using around a half tip of right hand english. You would have to aim close to the pocket and will hit the point of the cushion on the end rail. On a billiard table it may be possible.
 
I agree

Hambone said:
Bob is dead on in post #4. I tried this shot 20 times today. It cannot be hit without using around a half tip of right hand english. You would have to aim close to the pocket and will hit the point of the cushion on the end rail. On a billiard table it may be possible.
Click to expand...

I do not think the corner 5 can get you there. I have been using another system where I line the object ball up through the corner pocket that you are "pinching" in this case and then pick a spot on the wall (Like the mirror system) and it works great hitting the head rail first with a touch of running english. I think it may be close in this scenario with no english, but I will have to try it.
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you think of the shot you have diagrammed as a corner-5 shot, you are shooting from about 5.8 (depending on how you define the CB location) to about 1.0. If you use running english and the table is accurate for the corner-5, the cue ball is expected to hit the third cushion just on your side of the side pocket (going through 4.8). On a table I often play on, the ball will hit on the other side of the side pocket (to the left of it in the diagram).

I think that to get the pattern you illustrate, you have to use either no side spin or reverse depending on the table. I'll try it as soon as I get a chance, but perhaps others can report on what they have to do to get the diagrammed path.
Click to expand...

Hrmm... that's a good point. I hadn't checked the plus system math against the corner 5 math. I haven't gotten a chance to try this, but going from memory on my "usual" table, this path is fairly common when playing one-pocket and trying to 2-rail balls into that pocket. Of course, that does imply no (or almost no) side-spin. I do know that the table does NOT play on-system for the corner 5.

To be honest, I'm trying to exactly remember the plus system rules for going around pocket from the VEPS Disc 4 I watched last month. I guess this is a sign I need to watch it again. perhaps dr_dave can verify?
 
The question of whether this hit can be made or not is quickly resolved with Little Joe's system. There are many good systems out there, but you are Up The Creek when that specific spot on the rail isn't alvailable to you.

The power of Joe's system takes over when you have interfering balls. Joe can simply chose another spot on the rail & apply his clock method to bend the CB back to the OB. Seriously, if you aren't using his systems, you are LOSING!

Background: I used to be a decent kicker. It was a mixture of math (I'm an Engineer) and "feel" (empirical evidence tells you when the CB will pick up spin off the rails & alter the final angles...this develops "feel").

With that good foundation in hand, I spent a few mintues with Joe (and bought his DVDs) and a whole new world opened up. There aren't many kicks I fail to hit today...and I'm usually aiming to hit a specific spot on the OB!

Random Story: Three weekends ago Joe demonstrated his typical, willing-to-help-anyone attitude. I was watching a guy struggle to make a (simple to me) kick. He seemed very confused about the shot & couldn't get close. Joe took notice of this & walked over. Within a few minutes the guy was kicking right at the ball. The guys problems were two-fold...1) he wasn't hitting the right spot on the CB (which Joe fixed) and 2) he wasn't hitting the right spot on the CB consistently (which Joe fixed). The guy was overjoyed at this new skill...and kept trying different kicks to try out his new skills. That was fun to watch!
 
stljohnny said:
To be honest, I'm trying to exactly remember the plus system rules for going around pocket from the VEPS Disc 4 I watched last month. I guess this is a sign I need to watch it again. perhaps dr_dave can verify?
Click to expand...
You are correct. I can verify that you "need to watch it again." :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

PS: I'm currently writing a series of BD articles (three on the Plus System and three on the Corner-5 System) showing how to make adjustments and how to apply the systems in different game situations. The first will appear in the August issue, and all of them will be available here as soon as they come out. Maybe I'll try to include the examples from this thread in the articles.
 
Scaling on long rail

Bob Jewett said:
If you think of the shot you have diagrammed as a corner-5 shot, you are shooting from about 5.8 (depending on how you define the CB location) to about 1.0. If you use running english and the table is accurate for the corner-5, the cue ball is expected to hit the third cushion just on your side of the side pocket (going through 4.8). On a table I often play on, the ball will hit on the other side of the side pocket (to the left of it in the diagram).

I think that to get the pattern you illustrate, you have to use either no side spin or reverse depending on the table. I'll try it as soon as I get a chance, but perhaps others can report on what they have to do to get the diagrammed path.
Click to expand...

I tried the shot today and did not hit it once. The numbering for +2 on the long rail is not portrayed accurately in post #5. According to my shots, 1/2 diamond from the corner pocket is 4. So, to hit a value of 3 is too close to the pocket.

The +2 could be used to contact balls farther up the rail. The general problem here is that the numbers are tightly packed so a very focused and accurately hit shot is required. That is difficult without finer markings on the rail. I used pennies with moderate success for shots with differences of 4 or more.
 
Rak9up said:
6 minus 4 1/2=1 1/2

Let the concept of CTE enter your head then ignore it

aim,at 1 1/2 dimonds use running english,fire
Click to expand...

stljohnny said:
Are you suggesting there's not a 3-rail route to hit this ball? Or just that using the 3-rail (corner 5), and playing for the object ball on the 2nd rail is impossible?

If the suggestion to this kick is strictly 2-rails, then I would agree that using a 3-rail system is impossible - but it follows that would also be using the wrong tools. The corner 5 system should be able to direct the CB to the 1B off 3 rails - but it requires 3 rails - correct?

Doesn't the plus system still work here anyway?

Counting from the 1 around the corner to the CB, the number is 3, counting from the opposite corner pocket in half-diamonds, starting with 1 at the corner pocket, 3 is the first rail diamond. Aim through that point, with a little running english should bring the CB down the 1 ball - given the correct speed and english for the table.

CueTable Help

Click to expand...


Nope both 'plus' n corner 5 system didn't work with running n center striking. tried tons of times today! :(
 
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