Totally. The use of pre ban ivory also cures cancer, returns lost pets to their owners, and replenishes the rainforests. So, please keep using ivory.
200 kg ivory haul may be Gabon's biggest ever
- Thread starter Pangit
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Totally. The use of pre ban ivory also cures cancer, returns lost pets to their owners, and replenishes the rainforests. So, please keep using ivory.
Totally. The use of pre ban ivory also cures cancer, returns lost pets to their owners, and replenishes the rainforests. So, please keep using ivory.
Shawn,
Forgive my frankness, but this proves the worthlessness of your statements on this issue.
You do not like ivory and it's use and that is your prerogative. Your uneducated statements on the general subject of ivory do nothing to contribute to any meaningful debate on the topic.
There is really nothing more to be said except that I fail to understand what amounts to your "trolling" on every thread that involves the subject.
Actually, the problem stems from most of you ivory consumers being complete idiots. Forgive my frankness, but it's true.
You cannot possibly fathom that people kill elephants for the ivory, because people want to buy the ivory. Simple supply and demand. And it ends up in an argument about conservatives calling liberals a bunch of commies, blah, blah, blah.
So, please....keep buying ivory. When the last elephant is dead, your cue values will skyrocket. I could give two shits about discussing it with you, because people with PhD's, and people who advise the world on trade policies have made statements, yet 5-6 geniuses on AZB that sell old cues for a living know more about the ivory trade. Priceless.
You're clueless. Really. End of discussion.
Shawn,
Please direct me to where I have ever professed that using poached ivory is alright or even tolerated....or that using pre-ban material helps stop poaching.
Poaching is disgusting, as is being an ignorant asshole supporting an approach that will increase poaching.
And please do continue your replying and trolling. It's not cute, but pretty humorous really.
Please direct me to where I have ever professed that using poached ivory is alright or even tolerated....or that using pre-ban material helps stop poaching.
Poaching is disgusting, as is being an ignorant asshole supporting an approach that will increase poaching.
And please do continue your replying and trolling. It's not cute, but pretty humorous really.
Those of us that like using ivory in a pool cue and those of us that like to to resist needless government into the private sector oppose your sentiments.......like it or not but there is ivory already here in the United States of America that has been declared and determined to be legal........there is an ample surplus of pre-ban ivory available.......and no one has stated nor implied that using pre-ban ivory impedes or curtails in any manner whatsoever the poaching of elephants........another bridge too far errant-minded conclusion.
By now, some of us should have learned that letting this turn into personal attacks accomplishes nothing. Instead of kicking one another in the shins, let's discuss meaningful notions and suggestions that have a chance but don't blunder like Trump with his position on banning all Muslims....OMG.....just ban 'em all.......Yup, the same stupid approach being espoused, preached and mistakenly adopted in some states....like CA......Yup, ban all ivory even though it's been legally here in the good old USA for decades.
Folks, debate solutions and ideas instead of regurgitating the same old bullshit.......discuss legality, constitutionality, animal preserves, adequacy of resources, harsher penalties, etc.....anything that might stand a chance but this kick the can bullshit should really end........it's been beaten to death.
Matt B.
By now, some of us should have learned that letting this turn into personal attacks accomplishes nothing. Instead of kicking one another in the shins, let's discuss meaningful notions and suggestions that have a chance but don't blunder like Trump with his position on banning all Muslims....OMG.....just ban 'em all.......Yup, the same stupid approach being espoused, preached and mistakenly adopted in some states....like CA......Yup, ban all ivory even though it's been legally here in the good old USA for decades.
Folks, debate solutions and ideas instead of regurgitating the same old bullshit.......discuss legality, constitutionality, animal preserves, adequacy of resources, harsher penalties, etc.....anything that might stand a chance but this kick the can bullshit should really end........it's been beaten to death.
Matt B.
Wouldn't the opposite be true? Luxury brands get knocked off every day because people desire them.
Desiring ivory, legal or otherwise, means there is a value to it and so it will be poached?
The only way ivory will stop being poached is if it is worth less than the trouble it takes to take out an elephant.
They have come out with synthetic rhino horn that is utterly biologically indistinguishable from the real deal so they can utterly flood the markets with it, lowering the price of rhino horn to the point that no one will bother poaching it.
Simple question - how is ivory authenticated as being "pre ban" vs illegally acquired ivory? Ivory needs to be crushed and analyzed to truly tell if it's actually legally acquired ivory. And...that "pre ban" ivory just means you acquired it prior to a certain date.
People seem to think that pre ban ivory falls off of live elephants, and that it was ethically acquired. Someone shot an elephant prior to 1989, when ivory trading was legal. That's still a dead elephant, killed purely for a tusk of ivory. An animal DIED so that someone could own pretty white stuff. The fact that it was shot legally or illegally shouldn't matter. It's still dead. And for no purpose other than their tusks are beautiful.
Do you see no ethical issue with that...at all?
What he said,
Like deer hunting was illegal back in the days.
Abe Lincoln was shot too, but owning some of his furniture today would not be an ethical issue....
I'm not saying I'm happy about pre-ban elephants being shot, but since we cant turn back the clock, seems like even more of a waste if the tusk is simply thrown away, vs put toward some kind of art.
By the way, demand for pre-ban ivory doesn't equal demand for post-ban ivory. The proper solution is to police the poachers....they don't "have to" kill/steal just because there is a "demand"..............there is a demand for old collectible cues too, doesn't mean I "have to" go steal some cues.....how about we ban all old cues, just to end the demand and be sure no one steals any.............
Good stuff here.
Unfortunately, our political culture keeps doing exactly what it's been designed to do - keep us divisive and at each other's throat...even in areas not necessarily political. I used to be big into politics, but I got tired of only looking for something, anything, bad to say about the other guy.
If the Left hand and the Right hand are always fighting, who's gonna feed and take proper care of the body? Think on that.
ps - I own a cue with ivory and love it. I'd still buy a cue that's already made with ivory in it, but I doubt I'd ask for it on a cue I'm having made. That's how I now feel about it. You feel how you want, I'm not gonna be attacking you over it. It wouldn't help anything anyway, as pointed out in the quote above.
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In the linked articles it stated that ivory, in China, is $ 950 a lb. China is still the number one market for "illegal" ivory. The ivory will never be made worthless to these people, in fact the tighter the restriction, the higher the desire. Which equates to higher prices and MORE poaching. Which Shawn doesn't seem to want to admit to, showing his very limited knowledge to how the world operates.
Start shooting poachers on site, and supply the rangers with better equipment, and there will be less poaching. With all the burned and crushed ivory, this could have been accomplished 100 times over.
JV
Start shooting poachers on site, and supply the rangers with better equipment, and there will be less poaching. With all the burned and crushed ivory, this could have been accomplished 100 times over.
JV
Not necessarily.
I don't disagree, even a little, that demand in Asia will continue to put elephants at risk.
I was just pointing out that maintaining desire for it will continue to drive demand for poachers, since it has a hefty cash value.
When they perfect biologically indistinguishable ivory, then elephants will be off the hook. They can flood the market with shipping containers full of it
This is an exercise in futility.
There are two sides:
1) The uninformed
2) The informed
Correction - there are 3 sides:
1) The uninformed (this group wants to remain uninformed - let's plant a tree)
2) The uninformed who will listen to logic and the law
3) The Informed
No one can ever change it and nothing ever will. When people tell me that the ivory we sell or put into a pool cue is aiding poachers in Africa, there is nothing you can say or do to change their minds. You cannot fix stupid. I'm not saying anyone on here is stupid but out in the real world that's what we have to deal with.
Hot Delicious Popcorn Here!
There are two sides:
1) The uninformed
2) The informed
Correction - there are 3 sides:
1) The uninformed (this group wants to remain uninformed - let's plant a tree)
2) The uninformed who will listen to logic and the law
3) The Informed
No one can ever change it and nothing ever will. When people tell me that the ivory we sell or put into a pool cue is aiding poachers in Africa, there is nothing you can say or do to change their minds. You cannot fix stupid. I'm not saying anyone on here is stupid but out in the real world that's what we have to deal with.
Hot Delicious Popcorn Here!
I have no problem admitting anything, Joe. It's you that offers up every single excuse - "it's the Chinese", or "get more guns", or whatever, to justify your use of "legal" ivory.
There are more than enough resources you can read out there regarding this. TRAFFIC is a branch of the WWF that was tasked by CITES to research the illegal ivory trade. They have a ton of articles. Joe....feel free to read them, and then you can go ahead and state your vastly superior knowledge regarding this topic to them.
The elephant will be extinct soon. There is no arguing this point. The ivory advocates have said "there is enough pre ban ivory to last the world a lifetime". If this was the case, we wouldn't have the highest number of illegal killings of elephants in the past 4-5 years. The numbers don't lie.
The onus of proof has always been on the government official to prove your ivory is illegal. The new laws have flipped that. That shouldn't be an issue for any law abiding citizen who obtained ivory legally, and has the proper paperwork. All pre ban "official" ivory possesses a CITES document certifying that the ivory was obtained before 1989. If you're buying ivory, you should have that piece of documentation with your acquired ivory. The typical defense has been "it's pre ban", and the government official had to say "ok", because there is no way other than destroying the ivory, for them to authenticate the age of the ivory. There is apparently a new test coming out that is less expensive, and doesn't require destruction of the ivory, but it's still a little ways off in the future. The new onus is on the possessor of the ivory, to prove they have obtained it from the proper channels.
I could go back and forth with any/all of you, provide clear evidence, and papers from world authorities, as I already have, and the response is "you're an idiot", or "mumbo jumbo", or other stupid messages of deflection and lame theories that killing ivory poachers will remove the problem. The problem is the world's lust over ivory. Until you can cure that, elephants will keep dying. So - it's your WANT of ivory that has caused the problem, and that WANT that continues to fuel it. If no one wanted ivory, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Make up any bullshit you want about "well, we aren't the problem, Asia is....". Pure deflection.
They need to stop destroying seized ivory. Governments need to flood the market with what is seized at 1/4 of what it would normally sell for. That will drive the price and demand both down. The money they make off of it can be used for something good for their country (ie, schools, etc).
I didnt read this whole thread... so I have no idea if someone already mentioned that. I pretty much say this in every one of these dumbass ivory threads...
<-----loves ivory in cues.
I didnt read this whole thread... so I have no idea if someone already mentioned that. I pretty much say this in every one of these dumbass ivory threads...
<-----loves ivory in cues.
I love people who quote and use the WWF for their information. All this anti ivory info comes from corrupt organizations who prey upon the public for donations so that CEO's can draw million dollar salaries.
Google the WWF and corruption, scams, fraud, etc.
Google the WWF and corruption, scams, fraud, etc.
After reading the last posts of15 or so pages, on ivory, and here we are AGAIN. I'll agree with three points:
1. The Colonel- only way to stop poaching is to kill the poachers.
2. Shawn- the elephant will soon be extinct.
3. Joe B.- you cannot fix stupid.
These posts are spot on. Please guys quit spewing insults at each other, it's Friday and the weekends coming. Time to party. HappyJack
1. The Colonel- only way to stop poaching is to kill the poachers.
2. Shawn- the elephant will soon be extinct.
3. Joe B.- you cannot fix stupid.
These posts are spot on. Please guys quit spewing insults at each other, it's Friday and the weekends coming. Time to party. HappyJack