2025 Reyes Cup, Oct 16-19, Manilla. Team Asia vs Team World

[gopi-1]

Johan also pointed out that American pride and the belief that Americans are the best at everything, including pool has been part of the downfall of American players. European and Asian countries, he said, take a completely different approach to developing young talent. They start training seriously at a young age, with structure, coaching, and professionalism. Meanwhile, many American players rely on raw talent and self-belief rather than disciplined preparation. His comments made a lot of sense.

JAM, I haven’t been back home (Philippines) in 22+ years, but for what its worth, 99% of Filipinos are self taught. They have to learn the game the hard way. You don’t win, you don’t eat, and no food on the table.

I really want to hear someone who’s been there recently. Jay’s been back and forth the past few years, and I want to hear his take on this.

 

[sjm]

One last thing, I was there at the Reyes Cup for the first two days and I saw nothing at all that looked like "toxicity." And I'm a very good observer of human behavior. I saw a group of people all working together to make the best show they could. There was a lot of laughter and camaraderie going on behind the scenes, and the entire crew seemed to be enjoying themselves. There was never any hint of animosity or anger, and I had access (as media) all over the arena. If there was any concern it was due to the lopsided score of the match and how they would handle it, both for the fans and the television broadcast.

Clearly, the mismatch, caused by a comical selection process that caused Team ROW to go with a squad that has won no WNT majors in 2025 and four players that had bad years relative to expectations (Neuhausen the clear exception), was the only problem.

The only two ROW players that won a 2025 WNT major were Filler (European Open) and Labutis (Hanoi Open), and neither was selected. SVB, in good form, narrowly losing the final to Yapp at the recent Florida Open, a WNT major, was also omitted from the team. With Team ROW leaving these elite, in-form, performers at the WNT majors at home, this team did not represent the best of the ROW. I'm sure the last thing Matchroom wants is for people to think that "the best players at Matchroom" and "the best players in the world" are two very different matters, but that was the impression created at the Reyes Cup.

Contrastingly, Asia showed up with the World 9ball champion, the US Open 9ball champion, and its roster carried four WNT major championships in 2025. They could have also had Ko Ping Chung, the reigning world 10ball champion, who is firmly in the conversation for best Asian player, but did not. I was rooting for Team ROW, but I was neither surprised nor disappointed in the least by this massacre.

What you say is 100% true. There can be no question that, for attendees, Matchroom productions are the best in our sport. Their arenas are superb, their presenters and commentators are superb, and they do whatever it takes to maximize the quality of the fan experience. As you noted in a different post, Emily is a lot more than an effective administrator during WNT produced events. She takes the job of hostess very seriously and her people skills and charisma make her one of the crowd, a role in which she seems to delight.

I will spend my money on attending Matchroom events for as long as I remain on this earth, for I know of what kind of experience I'm assured. I will also continue, by sharing my experiences with this forum and with countless other pool fans and afficianados in my circle, to recommend that others patronize Matchroom events as I do.

All the credit to Asia for their fine play.

The mismatch that was the 2025 Reyes Cup in no way tarnishes the Matchroom reputation, but they got burned by a selection process that was not, in any way, based on 2025 performance. Hopefully, they will learn from this mistake.

 

[VVP]

A business model based on rewarding loyalty only will always fail. Sidelined players might only show up for major tournaments which have potential for bigger payouts, to the detriment of the sport.

Production is not only about TV, the temperature at the arena for the Hanoi Open was miserable according to many players including Biado. Matchroom needs to do better, it has the resources.

 

[sjm]

A business model based on rewarding loyalty only will always fail. Sidelined players might only show up for major tournaments which have potential for bigger payouts, to the detriment of the sport.

Production is not only about TV, the temperature at the arena for the Hanoi Open was miserable according to many players including Biado. Matchroom needs to do better, it has the resources.

Thanks for your input. Obviously, I am only sharing my own experiences as a WNT event attendee. Issues in the arena at the Hanoi Open are beyond my reach as I have yet to attend.

To be fair, though, the 2025 Hanoi Open was played during a typhoon in Vietnam, one that wiped out the entire first day of play. Hence, I'm not sure Matchroom would have had the customary control of playing conditions. It's to their greatest credit that the event was neither cancelled nor its completion delayed.

 

[VVP]

Thanks for your input. Obviously, I am only sharing my own experiences as a WNT event attendee. Issues in the arena at the Hanoi Open are beyond my reach as I have yet to attend.

To be fair, though, the 2025 Hanoi Open was played during a typhoon in Vietnam, one that wiped out the entire first day of play. Hence, I'm not sure Matchroom would have had the customary control of playing conditions. It's to their greatest credit that the event was neither cancelled nor its completion delayed.

I am sure if they had reached out to the players and explained the situation with the heat/no AC, the players would not have reverted to social media to complain. Something went wrong management wise.

Do you really think MR would have cancelled the event given all the investment made? No sure about your "credit" logic, but everyone sees things differently.

 

[sjm]

I am sure if they had reached out to the players and explained the situation with the heat/no AC, the players would not have reverted to social media to complain. Something went wrong management wise.

Do you really think MR would have cancelled the event given all the investment made? No sure about your "credit" logic, but everyone sees things differently.

No doubt, they would have only canceled if logistics (and TV news footage showed many roads and towns flooded in that immediate area) made its completion unrealistic.

Yes, perhaps there was a communications failure here, but I'm in no position to say.

Let's add that Matchroom's willingness to step up to the plate and effectively deal with a crisis was well established when local authorities forced them to cancel the 2020 Mosconi because Alexandra Palace would not be available to them. The moved the event to Buckinghamshire and played it with no fans permitted in the arena.

 

[VVP]

No doubt, they would have only canceled if logistics (and TV news footage showed many roads and towns flooded in that immediate area) made its completion unrealistic.

Yes, perhaps there was a communications failure here, but I'm in no position to say.

Let's add that Matchroom's willingness to step up to the plate and effectively deal with a crisis was well established when local authorities forced them to cancel the 2020 Mosconi because Alexandra Palace would not be available to them. The moved the event to Buckinghamshire and played it with no fans permitted in the arena.

Come on, are you trying to insinuate that by moving to Buckinghamshire they operated at a loss and just for the benefit of TV viewing fans? I would believe they make more money from TV than in person attendance. "Willingness to step up to the plate"

 

[jay helfert]

JAM, I haven’t been back home (Philippines) in 22+ years, but for what its worth, 99% of Filipinos are self taught. They have to learn the game the hard way. You don’t win, you don’t eat, and no food on the table.

I really want to hear someone who’s been there recently. Jay’s been back and forth the past few years, and I want to hear his take on this.

Thanks for asking. There has been a defacto training center in Manila for decades now at Star Paper. It is a private facility owned by a wealthy backer of pool in the Philippines. Only pros and aspiring pros can enter the premises. You must enter through a security gate outside, and for a new player to get in one of the pros must vouch for you.

Star Paper's "poolroom" has maybe 18-20 top of the line tables and they are kept in good shape by attendants there. The players have access to free food and drinks while practicing there. It is a place where the top pros pass their knowledge on to the aspiring pros and help them with their game. When I was there I saw instruction and interaction of all kinds including playing sets against each other. I don't think they are allowed to gamble there. I believe this environment helps to create the great camaraderie we see among the Filipino players where they all support each other.

I think it goes without question that more good players come out of the Philippines then anywhere else. In essence the Filipino players are not "self taught." They undergo their own type of training and it seems to work fairly well I'd say. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

As for the many Filipino players who come from the provinces (far away from Manila), they all aspire to come to Manila and learn there. And when they are good enough they make it to the big time and start practicing with the big boys (Tier One and Two) in Manila. The rest is up to them and their own dedication.

One thing I left out is that in the huge metropolis of Manila there are several groups/poolrooms dedicated to hosting money games. Such as Marboys and a few others. This acts as a proving ground for new talent, where you might see a young up and coming player playing sets with Efren, Francisco, Dennis or other veteran players. This is how they work their way up the ladder. They spend more time actually playing in competition than simply practicing and hitting balls.

 

[jbart65]

Come on, are you trying to insinuate that by moving to Buckinghamshire they operated at a loss and just for the benefit of TV viewing fans? I would believe they make more money from TV than in person attendance. "Willingness to step up to the plate"

He is not trying to "insinuate" anything. Sjm has made simple and reasonable points about your criticism of Matchroom, acknowledging what he doesn't know when he doesn't know.

Something from which you could learn a lesson. You insinuate a lot of stuff with zero knowledge.

Case in point: The Ko brothers. They chose to play in China - and said so themselves - but you of course saw nefarious Matchroom machinations. Well, the Ko brothers also chose not to attend the Qatar 10 Ball Cup with a $100,000 top prize. Matchroom's fault, too?

A few years ago, I dug up Matchroom's financials and looked at pool. Whatever money it gets from TV for pool was not very large.

Looking at the most recent fiscal year, Matchroom generated far more revenue and profits from Darts, boxing and to a much lesser extent, snooker. At least 85% of its sales and revenue came from darts and boxing - Darts is the biggest moneymaker by far.

Snooker earned less than $1.5 million in fiscal 2024. Pool was so small it wasn't even broken out, and it might not even make more than fishing.

Pool simply is not highly profitable - that's why prize funds are small no matter the promoter. Predator isn't making much money on pro events, either. Company execs say the focus is on growing the sport so they can sell more equipment.

The lack of money in pool should be blindingly obvious to anyone who follows pro billiards. It should be obvious to you, too, but you implied repeatedly they are exploiting the players for profit.

I doubt Sky is paying a lot for WNT events. WNT is probably just happy they show any pool at all. I am guessing - because I do not know - that they leveraged their other sports to get pool coverage, too. Just look at the Youtube viewership. Even when pool matches are free, viewership globally is ridiculously low whether it is MR or Predator.

I know MR/WNT has its fair share of critics. You are one of them. Really, I understand. I share some of your complaints and irritation. The Reyes Cup organization and player favoritism, among others.

But the critics do themselves no favor when they say ridiculous things with little or no facts or logic.

Matchroom should indeed be subject to criticism. They need to do better. WPA/Predator need to do better, too. But I will give credit where credit is due.

 

[VVP]

Where did you see Ko Ping Chung said that he chose to play in China over Reyes cup?

 

[jbart65]

I already posted the info. Molina Mike messaged the Ko brothers and reported this on his DogginIt broadcast. They told them it was their choice to skip Hanoi/Philippines.

The Ko bothers also posted on social media about the Duya event those chose to attend. The last match either played appeared to be four days go. It was a long tournament that covered the dates of Hanoi and Reyes.

 

[skogstokig]

Where did you see Ko Ping Chung said that he chose to play in China over Reyes cup?

are you still questioning their choice to play an event with 280k first prize over one with 20k? jesus christ. ever heard of rational choice theory?

 

[jbart65]

are you still questioning their choice to play an event with 280k first prize over one with 20k? jesus christ. ever heard of rational choice theory?

Looks like LV Jinsong beat Dang Jin Hu on Sunday to win the top prize.

 

[VVP]

I already posted the info. Molina Mike messaged the Ko brothers and reported this on his DogginIt broadcast. They told them it was their choice to skip Hanoi/Philippines.

The Ko bothers also posted on social media about the Duya event those chose to attend. The last match either played appeared to be four days go. It was a long tournament that covered the dates of Hanoi and Reyes.

Hearsay not facts.

 

[VVP]

are you still questioning their choice to play an event with 280k first prize over one with 20k? jesus christ. ever heard of rational choice theory?

Then all pool players should have been in China, no?

 

[jbart65]

Hearsay not facts.

Then all pool players should have been in China, no?

I can't believe you are still arguing this. Can you never admit to being wrong? Evidently not.

Molina Mike mentioned this on his YT broadcast with Billiard Digest's Mike Panozzo. He also posted on FB:

"Talked to Ko. They chose to play Duya event. It’s huge prize fund out there so I get it. Over 280k for 1st. Completely respect and understand but would’ve loved to see either or both brothers on Reyes Cup Asian Team."

Maybe Molina Mike is a flat-out liar. Maybe he made it up. Maybe he never contacted the Ko brothers. Maybe he also lied to the editor of Billiards Digest. Maybe Matchroom told the Ko brothers weeks ago they would not be invited to the Reyes. Maybe that's why they skipped Hanoi.

Except the Ko brothers committed to the Duya event months ago. In fact, the Ko brothers also skipped the Florida Open in early August to play in another Duya Legends tour with a bigger prize fund.

Really, it's not hard. All you have to do is say: I am wrong.

Unless you really are this obtuse. Because if you are, then I will know I never need to bother responding to any of your posts again.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Then all pool players should have been in China, no?

That game, like snooker, is a different enough to pool that most pool pros would have little chance to do any good at all so they wouldn't waste their time trying. The Ko brothers on the other hand, living in a region where those tables are common and where that may even be the most commonly played game in that region, have likely played it more than most pool pros. So even if it isn't their main game they probably feel they have at least some chance since they have some half decent experience with it even if they clearly won't be one of the favorites.

A part of it could also be that they want to show some support to what is essentially the de facto "official" pool game of China (and presumably Taiwan?) that the government is wanting to see become successful worldwide. It wouldn't be out of the question that they may even feel some pressure to support this game at least a little bit. But I think the main thing is that they feel they have half a chance to do half ok at this event with a massive prize fund and almost no other pros feel that way.

 

[VVP]

I can't believe you are still arguing this. Can you never admit to being wrong? Evidently not.

Molina Mike mentioned this on his YT broadcast with Billiard Digest's Mike Panozzo. He also posted on FB:

"Talked to Ko. They chose to play Duya event. It’s huge prize fund out there so I get it. Over 280k for 1st. Completely respect and understand but would’ve loved to see either or both brothers on Reyes Cup Asian Team."

Maybe Molina Mike is a flat-out liar. Maybe he made it up. Maybe he never contacted the Ko brothers. Maybe he also lied to the editor of Billiards Digest. Maybe Matchroom told the Ko brothers weeks ago they would not be invited to the Reyes. Maybe that's why they skipped Hanoi.

Except the Ko brothers committed to the Duya event months ago. In fact, the Ko brothers also skipped the Florida Open in early August to play in another Duya Legends tour with a bigger prize fund.

Really, it's not hard. All you have to do is say: I am wrong.

Unless you really are this obtuse. Because if you are, then I will know I never need to bother responding to any of your posts again.

We don't know exactly what Molina asked the Kos.
If he asked, did Matchroom offer you to play in the Reyes Cup and they said yes, but we chose China that would be a totally different situation. Actually, it would have been to MR's public relations benefit to put out a statement indicating which of the top players were offered and declined for whatever reason.

 

[VVP]

That game, like snooker, is a different enough to pool that most pool pros would have little chance to do any good at all so they wouldn't waste their time trying. The Ko brothers on the other hand, living in a region where those tables are common and where that may even be the most commonly played game in that region, have likely played it more than most pool pros. So even if it isn't their main game they probably feel they have at least some chance since they have some half decent experience with it even if they clearly won't be one of the favorites.

A part of it could also be that they want to support what is essentially the de facto "official" pool game of China (and presumably Taiwan?) that the government is wanting to see become successful worldwide. It wouldn't be out of the question that they may even feel some pressure to support this game at least a little bit. But I think the main thing is that they feel they have half a chance to do half ok at this event with a massive prize fund and almost no other pros feel that way.

I watched a game for a short time and it looks like 8 ball. What's the big difference except pocket cuts?

 

[spartan]

To be fair, Scott has been proclaiming his love for manas to all year.

I will complement before I criticise.
I actually prefer Scott as commentator over JJ. Not as knowledgeable but he has better vocal delivery tone and more charisma than JJ. JJ just likes to hear his own voice even on simple shots and his tone is so monotonous makes you want to sleep.
But I would not recommend anyone hire Scott as talent scout.

Funny how this has set up for a Manas MVP. Emily must be salivating.

That is kinky on so many levels

the social media world is beyond my comprehension. it's possible manas makes more money being "starboy" on tiktok than carlo made winning in saudi. i wouldn't know. the only effect i see is that it hypes up players, both male and female

I think 16 yo Jaybee is most popular FB possibly in pool more than Manas, Gorst. Don't be surprised if Matchroom picks him next year

i don't know, i think it's team culture as well. which is difficult to begin with, as "rest of the world" is such a catch all concept, but it's hardly aided by the lackadaisical and festive approach that fedor and skyler demonstrated. JJ has proved beyond doubt that he's not a good cup captain

JJ didn't get hint that he was not welcome. Clearly he had no control over them, Jay was making fun saying JJ need to sleep is old. There are already 2 captains Jay and Sky on ROW and looks like they were running the team