- Joined
- Jun 14, 2006
- Messages
- 46,284
- Points
- 113
Roadie your doing ok, not getting beat up too bad. Are you sure you don't need a job in the marketing feild. You may have some sales skills lol.
Sounds a little like Kevin Trudeau..ya think? :smile:
J
$25 for a piece of chalk is ridiculous!
- Thread starter Rocket354
- Start date
Sounds a little like Kevin Trudeau..ya think? :smile:
J
John Schmidt, the professional player and US Open champion feels otherwise.
What if people can do all the things that they do with Masters and more? What if because of this product the regular play gets more consistent and more fluent? What if the trick shots get even wilder now that the player has more control over the ball due to increased friction between the tip and the cueball?
Would you tell runners that they had to wear the same shoes that competitive runners wore in 1922? Or swimmers that they have to wear the same suits as they did in 1940?
These are two examples of equipment making it easier for the athlete to perform. The best is still the best only they have the best equipment to rely on. Is a Moori tip better than a LePro? I remember when Mooris were being sold for $60 installed and LePros were $10 installed. If a Moori is better how is it better? What does it do for you and your game that a Le Pro does not do? I could just as easily say a tip is a tip and that layered tips are for suckers and beginners. However we both know that this is not the case.
12ozCurl
Banned
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
- Messages
- 842
- Points
- 0
Some kamui chalk facts....
There to date have been 1300 peices of Kamui chalk imported to the USA.
I have had about 8% of this total pass through my hands.
Kamui only has the manufacturing capabilities to produce a few peices a day.
It is actually about a dollar cheaper in the US than japan.
I have sold cubes at varying prices, from 30-65 each.
Kamui chalk is not edible...dont ask how I know that
Women like Kamui chalk. 75% of my customers are women
There to date have been 1300 peices of Kamui chalk imported to the USA.
I have had about 8% of this total pass through my hands.
Kamui only has the manufacturing capabilities to produce a few peices a day.
It is actually about a dollar cheaper in the US than japan.
I have sold cubes at varying prices, from 30-65 each.
Kamui chalk is not edible...dont ask how I know that
Women like Kamui chalk. 75% of my customers are women
Roadie your doing ok, not getting beat up too bad. Are you sure you don't need a job in the marketing feild. You may have some sales skills lol.
I am fine. I understand the line between hype and performance and what to place value on. Many here do not and take offense at the wrong things. There is a lot to be offended by in the billiard industry, what's left of it. This product is not one of them.
I applaud Kamui for taking this step. It's a ridiculous price in a down industry in a down economy. I would bet that they have sold less than 1000 pieces in the past several months whereas Tweeten has probably sold 10,000 gross in the same span of time.
What Kamui has done is get people thinking much much deeper about something that most of have simply taken for granted. I confess that before the whole $25 chalk era I thought that the $5 Blue Diamond chalk was way out of line and that people who swore by Pre-Flag masters to the point of treating their caches like diamonds were a bit crazy.
As I said earlier I have a piece coming and I am anxious about it. I am already afraid of losing it. I will be very upset if I drop it and it falls to pieces. I have to change my habits. I have to be super protective of it. This is not something I am looking forward to but I have tried it and found that I wanted more access to see if it's really working to allow me to play with the rhythm I prefer to play at.
Other than that I simply like to discuss concepts relating to product development because that happens to be my field. I am not a designer but I am responsible for sourcing how to get a product made. So on that level this story is fascinating.
You would think I should have earned a free cube by now! Where are you at Kamui people???? I know you are reading this.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2010
- Messages
- 750
- Points
- 0
LOL no doubt, in this economy chalk theft may be on the rise. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts after you try it out.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2003
- Messages
- 848
- Points
- 28
I agree with you, Roadie. When compared with consumer expectations, the price is steep. Is it based on hype, or on costs and the amount they expect to sell? Only Kamui knows the answer. What is clear is that Kamui isn't in the bargain end of the business. They develop high quality products that make a splash.
It's like Rolex. They're overkill for what the average person needs in a watch, but there's obviously demand. People who can't or won't spend that kind of money act all put out, but Rolex's presence doesn't affect these people's access to watches in their price range. So what's the problem?
So I take it then that you would be perfectly ok with it if you went to a tournament and were told you were only allowed to use SportCraft chalk while your opponent was allowed to use Masters?
After all if we accept your premise then your play should not be affected in the least by switching brands of chalk. Do you agree?
This would be your chalk.
You can tell me after the tournament how you feel about it. This package is $3.99 including 5 awesome tips and the means to install them. Want to double down and try to win the tournament using Sportcraft tips and chalk together?
Last edited:
No, what I said is entirely correct, as refrained by the rest of your message.
While longevity is no excuse for lack of change, there does not exist any evidence that a statistically significant performance advantage can be gained from the baseline products already on the market. That doesn't say there aren't other advantages to be gained, nor does that statement exclude the idea that a product can be deemed 'better' than another.
The conversation has been productive, but stalled because it is lost in a series of 'what ifs', 'maybes', and 'assumptions'. All seem to agree that we have adequate friction modifiers on the market to treat as a baseline. Hence, the argument from many being that 'chalk is just chalk' is a simple revelation of this fact. That statement should not be taken as all chalks are created equal, but a declaration that the baseline performance has generated the necessary results.
The problem is generating a statistically significant increase in performance from one friction modifier (baseline) to another as evidence. This is easier said than done, specifically for the reason many give for the purported advantage: the variance between any two top players is very, very close. Be very, very careful with any argument assuming an increase in performance for this reason.
Last edited:
This is a strawman argument and unnecessary to the discussion. Products existing below baseline are trivial to the conversation.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2011
- Messages
- 617
- Points
- 0
So I take it then that you would be perfectly ok with it if you went to a tournament and were told you were only allowed to use SportCraft chalk while your opponent was allowed to use Masters?
After all if we accept your premise then your play should not be affected in the least by switching brands of chalk. Do you agree?
This would be your chalk.
You can tell me after the tournament how you feel about it. This package is $3.99 including 5 awesome tips and the means to install them. Want to double down and try to win the tournament using Sportcraft tips and chalk together?
Roadie, you are dramatizing this issue now, just like you did with your counter example. Let's all come back down to earth now, shall we?
In my example, I was claiming that taking your family out to dinner for about the same money that you would spend on a chalk would make you happier. I think this is quite realistic. In fact, I think most of the people here who do not believe in the magics of the Kamui chalk would agree with this. Not only they would agree, but they would actually go out there and "do it". Because they can.
In your example, you relied on Mr. Schmidt's comment on the Kamui chalk that it could actually make you win a tournament, by preventing you from miscuing. In turn, you were taking your family out for a vacation with the money that you won in this hypothetical tournament. This, although statistically possible, is far from actually happening. But you argued that your counter-example is equally "valid". Rhetorically speaking, I agree with you lol...
If Mr. Schmidt actually believes in what he was saying, I think he found the one thing that would give him the edge over other top pros in the tournaments that he will be partaking. I think Efren, Earl, Shane, and most other top pros in those tournaments will still stick with the red cube available to them on the tables.
Hence, I think we will have to wait and see if it actually happens. Until then, I won't argue over hypothetical arguments that are only statistically possible and rely on "pro comments" being passed by somebody on the internet...
I suggest you read the link in your signature in the meantime
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2010
- Messages
- 233
- Points
- 28
I just got a cube of this chalk from Seyberts...I love it. Without question, it is an upgrade from Masters.
This 'debate' reminds me of when I played a lot of golf (second golf analogy, I think) back when oversized drivers were being introduced. When Callaway came out with the Big Bertha, all the mid-low handicappers scoffed claiming how ridiculous it was, and that if you were any good, you wouldn't need that enormous 'watermelon on a toothpick' driver. When they found out that it was also $300 for 1 club, they fell over saying they would NEVER pay that much for a club. Now clubs routinely cost in excess of $600, and everyone from the top pros to the weekend duffer uses an oversized driver with an oversized price tag. Nowadays, if you go to a golf course with an undersized driver, you are looked at sideways by the same low-mid handicappers because 'you really should invest in some technology'.
Kamui Chalk...Pool's Big Bertha?
Another thing about the debate here on $25 chalk...I don't gamble on pool very often, but all I here from 'players' are how a 'cheap set' is anywhere from $20-$50. The vast majority talk about that as being, 'meh..it's only $20...just enough to keep it interesting, but nothing I don't mind losing'.
For the life of me, I don't understand how in one thread $25 is nothing...just enough to keep it interesting, and in another thread, $25 for 6 months-1 year of chalk is OUTRAGEOUS!!
This 'debate' reminds me of when I played a lot of golf (second golf analogy, I think) back when oversized drivers were being introduced. When Callaway came out with the Big Bertha, all the mid-low handicappers scoffed claiming how ridiculous it was, and that if you were any good, you wouldn't need that enormous 'watermelon on a toothpick' driver. When they found out that it was also $300 for 1 club, they fell over saying they would NEVER pay that much for a club. Now clubs routinely cost in excess of $600, and everyone from the top pros to the weekend duffer uses an oversized driver with an oversized price tag. Nowadays, if you go to a golf course with an undersized driver, you are looked at sideways by the same low-mid handicappers because 'you really should invest in some technology'.
Kamui Chalk...Pool's Big Bertha?
Another thing about the debate here on $25 chalk...I don't gamble on pool very often, but all I here from 'players' are how a 'cheap set' is anywhere from $20-$50. The vast majority talk about that as being, 'meh..it's only $20...just enough to keep it interesting, but nothing I don't mind losing'.
For the life of me, I don't understand how in one thread $25 is nothing...just enough to keep it interesting, and in another thread, $25 for 6 months-1 year of chalk is OUTRAGEOUS!!
See our discussions above on expectations. In this case, there is both a specific expectation level (that of kamui chalk) and a general expectation level (that of baseline chalk).
In both the case of gambling and chalk the value is only relative to expectations, not to some arbitrary absolute. The expectation level between a common gambling amount and the amount one expects to generically pay for chalk are very different. In the first, $25 approximates the expectation level, but in the second it does not.
Value, as is money in general, are relative constructs and the difference between relative and absolute is very important in many aspects of this thread. Marketers commonly exploit the fact that this is taken for granted. While the concept of relativity is not complex, it is also not often thought about. Therefore, when a company claims that Product X is Y% better than Product Z, they are correct in assuming an absolute increase, however, they often hide the fact there does not necessarily exist a relative difference.
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2006
- Messages
- 46,284
- Points
- 113
Pretty much how the manufacturer wants you to react.
For that matter, a good pair of socks that save your feet and may last a few years should cost a few grand.
J
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Messages
- 9,629
- Points
- 113
Home run! :thumbup:
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2005
- Messages
- 449
- Points
- 18
So I take it then that you would be perfectly ok with it if you went to a tournament and were told you were only allowed to use SportCraft chalk while your opponent was allowed to use Masters?
After all if we accept your premise then your play should not be affected in the least by switching brands of chalk. Do you agree?
This would be your chalk.
You can tell me after the tournament how you feel about it. This package is $3.99 including 5 awesome tips and the means to install them. Want to double down and try to win the tournament using Sportcraft tips and chalk together?
LOL , please tell me you didnt buy this just for the pic ?.. or is it a pic from the web
carl
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2011
- Messages
- 617
- Points
- 0
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 808
- Points
- 43
What about skidding?
If it stays on the tip better, doesn't that mean that it stays off the cue ball better? If both players were using it, wouldn't there be far fewer skids?
If it stays on the tip better, doesn't that mean that it stays off the cue ball better? If both players were using it, wouldn't there be far fewer skids?