526 and John Schmidt

[PoolBum]

Pat got Willie's "flip" answer. Sorry, I don't believe it. I still think he missed. I grew up in Dayton, just down the road from Springfield. I knew Russ Maddox well, and also George Rood. They were around when Willie was doing his exhibitions. According to every one in the area, Willie did run 526 balls, and then he missed. Plain and simple. Willie's ego may have required him to make up another story from time to time. He was not one to downplay his accomplishments. In fact, the opposite may be true.

I believe he missed too. I wasn't reporting the interview excerpt to claim he didn't miss, but to show that Willie did in fact claim himself (flippantly or not) that he did not miss. I wouldn't be surprised if Willie repeated that line so often that he actually came to believe it.

 

[pdcue]

Pat got Willie's "flip" answer. Sorry, I don't believe it. I still think he missed. I grew up in Dayton, just down the road from Springfield. I knew Russ Maddox well, and also George Rood. They were around when Willie was doing his exhibitions. According to every one in the area, Willie did run 526 balls, and then he missed. Plain and simple. Willie's ego may have required him to make up another story from time to time. He was not one to downplay his accomplishments. In fact, the opposite may be true.

You're on the case Jay.

For decades, Mosconi claimed he never missed. I didn't hear the
'just got tired' wrinkle till his instructional video from the early 80s.

1. There was an article in the Springfield paper a few days after the
run that described the shot he missed.

2. In his biographical "Willie's Game", he admits openly that he missed
and adds he was 'weary' - he even adds a few interesting details -
the run took 2 hours and 10 minuets -he averaged 4 balls per minute.

This doesn't sound to me like a guy who is vague in his memory of
what really happened - perhaps #2 has something to do with
being aware of #1.

I'm on the case Jay.

I don't know if you ever ran into 'Halmiton Marty',
he was a very strong shortstop in the 50s and 60s - beat every
human in SW Ohio except Clem and Joey, and, of course, George Rood.

He was at the room shortly after 'The Run' - he even showed me
the layout of the missed shot, and how Willie got into that spot.

I will try to see if he remembers any details about the specific table.
doubtless he would have played on it many times. Hoping to get some
first hand info on the infamous pocket size and cloth and balls.

Dale

 

[pdcue]

Jay, have you heard anything about Mosconi actually missing a shot during that run and then continue shooting to 526? I think it was Grady that mentioned on this board a few years back that when mosconi was at around 400 balls he shot a ball in that popped backed out onto the table and it was agreed that the ball should have stayed down so it was counted as a good shot and he continued....that was the only time I ever heard about that.

Well, a lawyer, who was at the event drew up an afidavit that was
signed by about 50 people, that says he didn't miss.

I don't think there was a conspiricy.

Dale

 

[ironman]

There is no doubt in my mind that Schmidt or one of the top 14.1 players could break Mosconi's record if they had available a 4 x 8 with loose pockets.

Doc

With these coditions, I think quite a few could. BUt, what would be the point?

Back in the early 70's, at the Stardust, Colivita was practicing and on an incredible run of like 600 plus balls with a huge crowd sweating it. They postponed the start time to allow him to finish. That was on a 9 ft table. Why isn't he the best ever?

If you really think about it, how many chances would you give John to try this? What would be his motivation?

 

[JoeyA]

Well, a lawyer, who was at the event drew up an afidavit that was
signed by about 50 people, that says he didn't miss.

I don't think there was a conspiricy.

Dale

Where can we see a copy of the affidavit?
JoeyA

 

[sjm]

Where can we see a copy of the affidavit?
JoeyA

http://www.americanhistory.si.edu/archives/images/d9744-4.jpg

 

[crawfish]

Last night, I ran 621 balls. Witnesses and all. I'll put up the stats later. I was on a 4 1'2 x 9 Gandy with 5' pockets.




Sorry, my buddy called and reminded me it was 126. Damned aixelsyd.

 

[macguy]

Pat Fleming interviewed Mosconi at his 1991 exhibition 14.1 match against Jimmy Caras. Here is what Mosconi said in that interview about how his 526 ball run ended:

Pat: "I've read and I've heard different stories about what happened to end that run. Would you tell us?"

Mosconi: "What happened in the run? I ran 526 and got tired and quit."

Not true, he missed. I will tell you why I say that. I mentioned I was Mosconi stalker and saw over a 100 of his exhibitions even playing him myself twice. This was late 50's early 60's. Very contemporary to when the run that took place, in 1954. It was current history at the time. At almost every exhibition the subject of the run would come up and Mosconi always said he missed. He said it was a shot he should have made but he was getting tired and he just missed.

Years later he began repeating this story of just putting the cue down and quitting and like a lot of things the legend has become fact so people repeat the legend. Except for people like myself who were around him at the time and heard him say it himself there is no way to know the truth anymore. Maybe there are some newspaper articles at the time that may mention it. You need something more contemporary to the time and not articles that are just repeating the legend 40 or 50 years later.

I have a set of books called, "Only yesterday". They are histories of the previous decade. In other words the 1920's book was written in 1921 and so on. I am more willing to take as fact the word of an author who lived through and reported on the actual events then someone who dozens of years later writes a story that can be almost as inaccurate as a game of telephone.

 

[JoeyA]

http://www.americanhistory.si.edu/archives/images/d9744-4.jpg

WOW! Thanks! That is a very nice piece of history. I imagine you could tell me where this document is located and who owns it as well?

I will have to put you up there with my other oracle for solid billiard information, BJ. :smile:

JoeyA

 

[PoolBum]

Not true, he missed.

Oi vai. Please see post #81.

 

[Bobby]

With these coditions, I think quite a few could. BUt, what would be the point?

Back in the early 70's, at the Stardust, Colivita was practicing and on an incredible run of like 600 plus balls with a huge crowd sweating it. They postponed the start time to allow him to finish. That was on a 9 ft table. Why isn't he the best ever?

If you really think about it, how many chances would you give John to try this? What would be his motivation?

Wait a minute, you're saying Jack Colavita ran 600+ balls! I have to say I find this very hard to believe, I'm not saying Colavita wasn't a good player but 600 just seems out of his range. I've never once heard anyone mention any of his runs. I just think someone would've mentioned something like this before.

Maybe SJM can comment? He was friends with Colavita.

 

[sjm]

Wait a minute, you're saying Jack Colavita ran 600+ balls! I have to say I find this very hard to believe, I'm not saying Colavita wasn't a good player but 600 just seems out of his range. I've never once heard anyone mention any of his runs. I just think someone would've mentioned something like this before.

Maybe SJM can comment? He was friends with Colavita.

Hi Bobby. Hope you're well. Yes, Jack and I were close, even traveling together to a couple of Eastern States tour events in the 1970's, and he never mentioned this. The most I ever saw him run was in the 240's in the 1970's. I've heard others claim he ran over 300, but I cannot verify that this is true.

Oddly enough, the matter of what constitutes a run is sometimes in need of a little interpretation. I recall hearing once that Mike Eufemia ran 750. Again, this seemed rather unlikely, as my father and I knew Mike personally, and he'd never mentioned it. Then, one day, I had a chat with famed pool referee Cue Ball Kelly, and I asked him about it. Still curious about this, in October 2007, I posted about my chat with Cue Ball Kelly as follows:

....Cue Ball Kelly told me that Mike Eufemia (probably around 1959) once had five 150 and out runs in a single event, though it was neither at the World championships nor at the US Open. Kelly called it the greatest exhibition of straight pool he'd ever seen. I have no idea whether this really happened, but a referee is probably a reliable source....

So now, after this chat with Cue Ball Kelly, a dialogue that took place in about 1980, I believed that Eufemia had run 150 and out in five consecutive tournament matches, and that's how I understood things to have gone down for over 25 years. Sure enough, even this proved mistaken, and Bob Jewett, also familiar with this accomplishment, posted the following in reply to my post:

.... it was 150 and out in five consecutive exhibitions in different rooms which made it double tough due to the varied tables. Kelly felt that it was tougher than 750 consecutive balls ....

Well, not to take away from Mike Eufemia's remarkable accomplishment, but it seems his high run on that particular day was 150, not 750!

As you can see, Bobby, in a sport having no official records, especially in the area of high 14.1 runs, it's never crystal clear who ran how many and when.

Perhaps Jack had some long stretches of practice without missing, who knows? Perhaps every rack began with a set-up-by-hand break shot. I saw Jack practice that way on a few occasions. We'll never really know for sure.

 

[Bobby]

Hi Bobby. Hope you're well. Yes, Jack and I were close, even traveling together to a couple of Eastern States tour events in the 1970's, and he never mentioned this. The most I ever saw him run was in the 240's in the 1970's. I've heard others claim he ran over 300, but I cannot verify that this is true.

Oddly enough, the matter of what constitutes a run is sometimes in need of a little interpretation. I recall hearing once that Mike Eufemia ran 750. Again, this seemed rather unlikely, as my father and I knew Mike personally, and he'd never mentioned it. Then, one day, I had a chat with famed pool referee Cue Ball Kelly, and I asked him about it. Still curious about this, in October 2007, I posted about my chat with Cue Ball Kelly as follows:



So now, after this chat with Cue Ball Kelly, a dialogue that took place in about 1980, I believed that Eufemia had run 150 and out in five consecutive tournament matches, and that's how I understood things to have gone down for over 25 years. Sure enough, even this proved mistaken, and Bob Jewett, also familiar with this accomplishment, posted the following in reply to my post:



Well, not to take away from Mike Eufemia's remarkable accomplishment, but it seems his high run on that particular day was 150, not 750!

As you can see, Bobby, in a sport having no official records, especially in the area of high 14.1 runs, it's never crystal clear who ran how many and when.

Perhaps Jack had some long stretches of practice without missing, who knows? Perhaps every rack began with a set-up-by-hand break shot. I saw Jack practice that way on a few occasions. We'll never really know for sure.

Hi SJM, I hope you are also well. I agree that while Eufemia's 5 consecutive 150 ball runs in competion is truly amazing it's still not really a 750 ball run. I'm actually surprised at this feat because Eufemia was known for playing way under his true speed in competition. Even Cranfields 768 wasn't done in one day, he supposedly ran 400 one night and stopped and then continued the next day with 368, an amazing feat sure but not really a true 768 ball run.


How much time can elapse between shots for a run to be considered legitimate? Bob Watson told me that even Nagy's 430 wasn't all at once! He ran 280 balls and then a couple of players asked for the table to gamble on so he stopped (this sounds a little odd to me) and he sat down and had a sandwich! Then when they were done he continued and ran another 150 balls for a total of 430. Does that count as a legitimate run? I always thought one of the hardest thing about running balls was to keep up that kind of concentration for so long, but if you have a break during the run you come back a little refreshed. I don't know how much time Nagy sat down for but it was long enough to have lunch!

 

[sjm]

.... I'm actually surprised at this feat because Eufemia was known for playing way under his true speed in competition ....

As Bob Jewett noted when he chimed in on this subject, these runs were not in competition, but instead during paid exhibitions.

How much time can elapse between shots for a run to be considered legitimate? Bob Watson told me that even Nagy's 430 wasn't all at once! He ran 280 balls and then a couple of players asked for the table to gamble on so he stopped (this sounds a little odd to me) and he sat down and had a sandwich! Then when they were done he continued and ran another 150 balls for a total of 430. Does that count as a legitimate run? I always thought one of the hardest thing about running balls was to keep up that kind of concentration for so long, but if you have a break during the run you come back a little refreshed. I don't know how much time Nagy sat down for but it was long enough to have lunch!

Great question, but one having no official answer. It's easy enough to argue that Mosconi's run, and all the others that did not come under true tournament conditions, should not count for the record books. Perhaps Hohmann's 174 against Schmidt in the 2006 World 14.1 Championships and Joe Procita's 182, a lesser known run in 1951, which came against Mosconi, are the two highest runs we should concern ourselves with.

 

[nb92]

.. I didn't see John Schmidt at this years US Open? I thought he was living on the east coast, no?

 

[liakos]

.. I didn't see John Schmidt at this years US Open? I thought he was living on the east coast, no?

John said it was too expensive for the trip and not worth going to?!?! I think he's out west! I guess with all the hype about Barry, it probably scared some players, especially the Filipinos! It's really sad how it is, but pool is tough!