6 wing router cutter ...

[scdiveteam]

Hi All,

I had tried 4 different shaft tapering set up including my CNC with many cutters and speed / feed set ups looking to create a the best shaft RMS finish possible. When I was using my CNC I only had a three wing set up and wished I had tried a six wing. I went with a saw machine and am very happy today. Whatever cutter you use there are many factors that can be tweaked or examined to reduce the barber polling and other things that effect your shaft machining finish.

For the last 7 years I have used a dedicated table saw machine set up and have made many incremental design modification improvements. They are not exclusive to a table saw set up and can apply for your set ups as well. Today I use an 80 tooth Freud Triple Chip Blade custom ground to a flat top grind configuration. Six wings on a router can deliver even more machine touches per minute depending on the router. I also added a vernier controlled spring loaded device to my tail stock so I can attain the lightest pressure between center possible with a repeatable outcome every time. Today my feeds and speeds are 7 min travel and 135 rpm rotation. I added a gravity follow rest with a 26 gram loaded Teflon bullet that rides the contour on top of the shaft incurring the pressure required for harmony of the physical variables. This configuration eliminates any oscillation that occurs and the frequency or audible sound is a singular perfect pitch on each cut.

It took me over 10 years to get to the point where I am delighted with every shaft and can sleep good at night not thinking about why certain shafts came out very good while others wiggled in the middle at 1500 rpm in my wood lathe after the final cut. With my fully evolved set up, they are all the same and the sanding is done by hand north and south with out spinning in about a minute before sealing.

It is my philosophy that the shaft is the singular most important element of a cue and I view shaft build like a religious experience. In the end what ever effort you can make to improve you shafts by even 1/2 of 1 percent is worth the effort of time and money spent to that end.

The six wing cutter balanced and using the appropriate parameters in the set up and operation can reach shaft nirvana IMO but the devil is in always in the details. The more you work at it the better your shafts can be.

After reading this thread, my only opinion is that however you cut your shaft I think you will get the best performance at a very slow travel with a minimum with no faster than 1" travel in twenty seconds. Then play with your lathe speed to find what works best for you and never take less than a .010 kerf cut. If you have a lathe you are doing shafts on that won't go that slow on the travel speed, your never going to reach shaft nirvana IMHO. Speed Kills LOL!

JMO,

Rick

 

[WilleeCue]

<SNIP>

It is my philosophy that the shaft is the singular most important element of a cue and I view shaft build like a religious experience. In the end what ever effort you can make to improve you shafts by even 1/2 of 1 percent is worth the effort of time and money spent to that end.

<SNIP>

Rick

Rick, True words ... The shaft is without doubt the most dominate factor in how a cue plays. Time spent towards its perfection is time well spent.

A few shaft making companies (like OB) have invested great resources in high tech to get their shafts to be as identical as possible so that each one will play and feel much alike. These muliti piece shafts are a masterpiece of engineering and manufacturing skill.

Rick, I would really like to see some photos of your table saw setup if you dont mind sharing.

Willee

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick, True words ... The shaft is without doubt the most dominate factor in how a cue plays. Time spent towards its perfection is time well spent.

A few shaft making companies (like OB) have invested great resources in high tech to get their shafts to be as identical as possible so that each one will play and feel much alike. These muliti piece shafts are a masterpiece of engineering and manufacturing skill.

Rick, I would really like to see some photos of your table saw setup if you dont mind sharing.

Willee

Hi Willee,

I agree with you too. I just got 2 OB shafts that a customer ordered for his new custom. They were very impressive in every way from my perspective.

Rick,


Here are a couple of photos:

Pic of machine before gravity feed rest and adjustable spring loaded tail stock modifications. It did an excellent job but needed tweaking to obtain total repeatability and almost perfect RMS finish on every shaft.



Gravity feed follow rest is awesome!!! All shafts are the same quality with awesome repeatability.



Here is my spring loaded adjustable tail stock mod. Same spring load every time even if the shaft is a hair long or short. The pressure can be adjusted to the same very light pressure in a few seconds after load a blank.

 

[JoeyInCali]

You haven't seen smooth shafts until you've seen Searing's Cnc taperer.

 

[RBC]

I know there's always a lot of talk about the number of cuts per minute, and there can definitely be differences when switching to more or less teeth. Differences that will require changes in other parameters to get a good cut.

One most often over looked parameter though is the relationship between the tip speed and the rotational RPM of the cue shaft.

A router at 24000 rpm with a 1.875" slot cutter has a tip speed of almost 134 mph. While a 10" table saw blade turning at the typical 3450 has a tip speed of almost 103 mph. The router is about 30% faster.

What the tip speed does for you is it reduces the cut angle of the cutter as it passes through the rotating shaft. Basically, the faster the tip speed, or the slower the shaft rotation, the straighter down the shaft the load of the cut is. The slower the tip speed, or the faster the shaft rotation, the more the angle is, and the more likely it is to flex or give perpendicular to the cut direction. This give causes a flex and rebound in the shaft at a very high rate of speed, and results in the "barber pole" or chattered cut. It's kind of hard to maintain any real dimensions this way.

Obviously, we make a few more passes than most, so time is important to us. We can't wait 5 or 7 minutes to take a pass. We've found that if you start with the fastest tip speed possible, and then play around with the feed speeds and shaft rpm, you can get clean cuts with little or no chatter. Now, some of our cuts run pretty fast. Fast enough that we have a slight "threading" of the shaft as the feed rate is fast enough to show the radius cut of the slot cutter. But those are more the preliminary cuts where we are removing material more than anything. We are probably quite a bit faster than most would think though, even on the final passes.

The important thing is to tune out any chatter or vibration using the feed rate and the rpm. Then, you can move them up and down as needed to get the job done. Faster, and you can get some threading. Slower, and you can get some really clean smooth cuts.


Royce

 

[JoeyInCali]

I know there's always a lot of talk about the number of cuts per minute, and there can definitely be differences when switching to more or less teeth. Differences that will require changes in other parameters to get a good cut.

One most often over looked parameter though is the relationship between the tip speed and the rotational RPM of the cue shaft.

A router at 24000 rpm with a 1.875" slot cutter has a tip speed of almost 134 mph. While a 10" table saw blade turning at the typical 3450 has a tip speed of almost 103 mph. The router is about 30% faster.

What the tip speed does for you is it reduces the cut angle of the cutter as it passes through the rotating shaft. Basically, the faster the tip speed, or the slower the shaft rotation, the straighter down the shaft the load of the cut is. The slower the tip speed, or the faster the shaft rotation, the more the angle is, and the more likely it is to flex or give perpendicular to the cut direction. This give causes a flex and rebound in the shaft at a very high rate of speed, and results in the "barber pole" or chattered cut. It's kind of hard to maintain any real dimensions this way.

Obviously, we make a few more passes than most, so time is important to us. We can't wait 5 or 7 minutes to take a pass. We've found that if you start with the fastest tip speed possible, and then play around with the feed speeds and shaft rpm, you can get clean cuts with little or no chatter. Now, some of our cuts run pretty fast. Fast enough that we have a slight "threading" of the shaft as the feed rate is fast enough to show the radius cut of the slot cutter. But those are more the preliminary cuts where we are removing material more than anything. We are probably quite a bit faster than most would think though, even on the final passes.

The important thing is to tune out any chatter or vibration using the feed rate and the rpm. Then, you can move them up and down as needed to get the job done. Faster, and you can get some threading. Slower, and you can get some really clean smooth cuts.


Royce

If I had to go over 3 1/2 minutes, it'd drive me nuts ( on set passes; usually 1/2 MM or less ).
Depending on the dowel, it takes me about 7 minutes for the first taper to .650" ends.
From .600" down , 1 foot per minute is slow enough.
Slowing to 2 minutes or more per foot would drive me nuts b/c the cutter will just massage that wood with AIR. Hell, it might catch cold.
I have a manual taperer with a VFD spindle or big Dewalt router for roughing.
A vertical cnc taperer would be nice. :grin:

 

[Ernie eyocues]

I know there's always a lot of talk about the number of cuts per minute, and there can definitely be differences when switching to more or less teeth. Differences that will require changes in other parameters to get a good cut.

One most often over looked parameter though is the relationship between the tip speed and the rotational RPM of the cue shaft.

A router at 24000 rpm with a 1.875" slot cutter has a tip speed of almost 134 mph. While a 10" table saw blade turning at the typical 3450 has a tip speed of almost 103 mph. The router is about 30% faster.

What the tip speed does for you is it reduces the cut angle of the cutter as it passes through the rotating shaft. Basically, the faster the tip speed, or the slower the shaft rotation, the straighter down the shaft the load of the cut is. The slower the tip speed, or the faster the shaft rotation, the more the angle is, and the more likely it is to flex or give perpendicular to the cut direction. This give causes a flex and rebound in the shaft at a very high rate of speed, and results in the "barber pole" or chattered cut. It's kind of hard to maintain any real dimensions this way.

Obviously, we make a few more passes than most, so time is important to us. We can't wait 5 or 7 minutes to take a pass. We've found that if you start with the fastest tip speed possible, and then play around with the feed speeds and shaft rpm, you can get clean cuts with little or no chatter. Now, some of our cuts run pretty fast. Fast enough that we have a slight "threading" of the shaft as the feed rate is fast enough to show the radius cut of the slot cutter. But those are more the preliminary cuts where we are removing material more than anything. We are probably quite a bit faster than most would think though, even on the final passes.

The important thing is to tune out any chatter or vibration using the feed rate and the rpm. Then, you can move them up and down as needed to get the job done. Faster, and you can get some threading. Slower, and you can get some really clean smooth cuts.


Royce

hi, If you don't mind, do you have the same problem
of uneven cutter tips? And what cutter do you use?
thanks,
Ernie

 

[RBC]

hi, If you don't mind, do you have the same problem
of uneven cutter tips? And what cutter do you use?
thanks,
Ernie

Ernie

We buy typical 3 wing slot cutters, usually in some bulk deal at the best price we can find.

We do sharpen them sometimes. We have a jig setup with a diamond wheel on a grinder. But it's pretty easy to over heat the carbide if you're not careful.

As for the unevenness, sure our cutters aren't any better than any others. But, we seldom really worry about it. Most of the time, we just put the cutter on and cut away. If we run into issues that we can't tweak out, then we just put another cutter on and keep going. It's really not an issue very often.

We use a number of different machines. We have a 4 blade saw machine that we use to do most of the roughing. We run it pretty hard and fast, but again, with no chatter. When we get down to the last passes on the shafts as well as the dowels, we use cnc routers. We have some single spindle horizontal machine, and we have some vertical 2 spindle machines. All of the routers are using 24000 rpm chinese spindles.

Royce

 

[Canadian cue]

Ernie

We buy typical 3 wing slot cutters, usually in some bulk deal at the best price we can find.

We do sharpen them sometimes. We have a jig setup with a diamond wheel on a grinder. But it's pretty easy to over heat the carbide if you're not careful.

As for the unevenness, sure our cutters aren't any better than any others. But, we seldom really worry about it. Most of the time, we just put the cutter on and cut away. If we run into issues that we can't tweak out, then we just put another cutter on and keep going. It's really not an issue very often.

We use a number of different machines. We have a 4 blade saw machine that we use to do most of the ruffing. We run it pretty hard and fast, but again, with no chatter. When we get down to the last passes on the shafts as well as the dowels, we use cnc routers. We have some single spindle horizontal machine, and we have some vertical 2 spindle machines. All of the routers are using 24000 rpm chinese spindles.

Royce

Are those the spindles that are water cooled or are they air? How long have you been running them and how would you rate them? i am thinking of picking one up but am kinda worried about the quality.

 

[RBC]

Are those the spindles that are water cooled or are they air? How long have you been running them and how would you rate them? i am thinking of picking one up but am kinda worried about the quality.

They are the air cooled 1.5kw models.

On my 2 spindle machines, I run both spindles from one VFD. It's rated for the full 7 or 8 amps, but I've never seen it draw more than 4 amps. And that's for both spindles at the same time.

They are actually very good spindles. Occasionally, you get one with a funky bore so it has a little more runout than I like, but for the turning centers it's not enough to matter.

I've not had one fail yet. I do have one that the bearings are making noise, but it's also the one where one of my guys was having trouble with the arbor. He was putting it in too deep, so it was running for a while out of balance. I kind of expected the bearings to go pretty soon. I should get to see how to replace the bearings pretty soon.

I did have one mounted on an inlay machine at one time. I now have 2 NSK's on one machine, and a Fischer Precise on the other. All with ATC. I've got the single Precise working very well right now with fully automated tool changes. Here's a video of it in action. It's really cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZmBhma3fU


Anyway, the chinese spindles are good little spindles. There isn't really much to them. They're a 3 phase motor with better bearings so they can go faster and they have an ER collet nose. By the way, Deepgroove on Ebay has perfect little mounts made for them. They attach to a standard Taig dovetail and are very well made.

I hope that helps!

Royce

 

[LGSM3]

Ernie

We buy typical 3 wing slot cutters, usually in some bulk deal at the best price we can find.

We do sharpen them sometimes. We have a jig setup with a diamond wheel on a grinder. But it's pretty easy to over heat the carbide if you're not careful.

As for the unevenness, sure our cutters aren't any better than any others. But, we seldom really worry about it. Most of the time, we just put the cutter on and cut away. If we run into issues that we can't tweak out, then we just put another cutter on and keep going. It's really not an issue very often.

We use a number of different machines. We have a 4 blade saw machine that we use to do most of the ruffing. We run it pretty hard and fast, but again, with no chatter. When we get down to the last passes on the shafts as well as the dowels, we use cnc routers. We have some single spindle horizontal machine, and we have some vertical 2 spindle machines. All of the routers are using 24000 rpm chinese spindles.

Royce

Ruffing huh? Got any machines that do any woofing?

 

[RBC]

Ruffing huh? Got any machines that do any woofing?

Wow!

I can't believe I wrote that!

Good catch.

I was going to leave it, but since you've quoted it, I think I'll go ahead and change it. It will be there forever anyway, but at least it won't haunt me.


Royce

 

[Canadian cue]

They are the air cooled 1.5kw models.

On my 2 spindle machines, I run both spindles from one VFD. It's rated for the full 7 or 8 amps, but I've never seen it draw more than 4 amps. And that's for both spindles at the same time.

They are actually very good spindles. Occasionally, you get one with a funky bore so it has a little more runout than I like, but for the turning centers it's not enough to matter.

I've not had one fail yet. I do have one that the bearings are making noise, but it's also the one where one of my guys was having trouble with the arbor. He was putting it in too deep, so it was running for a while out of balance. I kind of expected the bearings to go pretty soon. I should get to see how to replace the bearings pretty soon.

I did have one mounted on an inlay machine at one time. I now have 2 NSK's on one machine, and a Fischer Precise on the other. All with ATC. I've got the single Precise working very well right now with fully automated tool changes. Here's a video of it in action. It's really cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZmBhma3fU


Anyway, the chinese spindles are good little spindles. There isn't really much to them. There a 3 phase motor with better bearings so they can go faster and they have an ER collet nose. By the way, Deepgroove on Ebay has perfect little mounts made for them. They attach to a standard Taig dovetail and are very well made.

I hope that helps!

Royce

That is a real sweet setup, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions about the spindles.