70s/80s Era Questions

[Pawlowski424]

So, here's my list of questions lol:

What was the general pocket size for pro-speed tournaments?

What were table conditions like?

I've noticed players of this era (Varner, Hall, Sigel, etc) playing with steel joint. What was the belief behind forward balanced/steel joint cues?

Is the information that's available today (pocket lines, cue ball physics, navigating the table, etc. Advanced details, so to speak), the same information as back then? If not, what has changed?

 

[gregcantrall]

As we were pulling from the tavern with me driving Coles nice big newer pick up. Vince from his open window says, "Western Union !" As soon as Coles window is closed Cole says, "forget Western Union. Go to the nearest bar. I only asked for the money. I don't know if it will be there. " I then got a one hour plus private, uh cab drivers confessions. Cole told me how well in a round about way, how he could call a guy that resides at the Las Vegas MGM and get a thousand. No problem.

 

[boogieman]

It's been said there's no difference in hit, but I can tell, and apparently a helluva lot of other players can as well - between steel jointed cues and implex or others. I don't care what somebody's 'test' says.
When the top players in the world explained the finites of this, I listened and observed.
There is a noticeable difference and players match joint types with their stroke and often pocketing speed.
Glad somebody cleared that up for me. Lol. Thanks Jay.

I'm a nobody but I guarantee you a G10 joint feels different than a steel joint. I can't say that one is better or worse but it's all about how the vibrations travel through the cue. It's a feel thing. The way the cue tingles in your grip hand.

 

[maha]

was vince the bar player who hung around smoky joes up there near china town. havent heard of him in decades. the way he lived he'd have to be dead by now.
or vince the poker dealer, cab driver and gambler friend of cole and myself that died young because he was stupid.

 

[jay helfert]

was vince the bar player who hung around smoky joes up there near china town. havent heard of him in decades. the way he lived he'd have to be dead by now.
or vince the poker dealer, cab driver and gambler friend of cole and myself that died young because he was stupid.

I think the Vince he is talking about is the guy who always hung out with Harry Platis and advised him in making games. His wife was in a wheelchair and she always came with him. Cool dude and still alive far as I know.

 

[gregcantrall]

was vince the bar player who hung around smoky joes up there near china town. havent heard of him in decades. the way he lived he'd have to be dead by now.
or vince the poker dealer, cab driver and gambler friend of cole and myself that died young because he was stupid.

Vince Frain was a regular at the 211. He would carry his wife piggy back as she was disabled. Vince was an odds maker/gambler and often entertained. I remember at one of the Whit Spot big tournaments, Soji in a sweat outfit with a hole in the pocket walking down the line of tables leaving a trail of hundred dollar bills. Vince was trailing behind collecting the bills. Kind of like the clean up guy following the elephants in the parade with broom and pan. At one of the Reno Sands tournaments I walked past Vince seated at a blackjack table. I must have looked despondent or broke (I wasn't), Vince turned and handed me $50. He did remember the loan at the next White Spot big tournament. I had come in on Sunday to watch the finals missing all of Saturday. I was looking to make a sweat bet and went straight to Racetrack Rick Hodge and asked, "who is going to win?" J.D. was playing for the point with the top Portland player and 4 capable players contending on the second chance side. When Rick pronounced JD as his pick, I Announced JD against the field and immediately picked up 2 $50 sweat bets. Vince was all over the action and reminded me of ,"the $50 "LOAN", and took the bet. So I either owed 100 or nothing. JD did win and I made 100 and paid my debt to Vince. Those were the days.
Edit: It took a while to remember, it was Brad Gowin JD was playing for the point.

 

[gregcantrall]

I think the Vince he is talking about is the guy who always hung out with Harry Platis and advised him in making games. His wife was in a wheelchair and she always came with him. Cool dude and still alive far as I know.

Ah, I missed your reply. I have been struggling with names of late. Lyla was her name(I think )and she was a treat. No elevator at the 211 had them perfecting the piggy back. Vince was a reliable odds maker. I enjoyed a compliment from him at a tournament in the north end, probably Everett.
It was bar box 8 ball and I finished a break and run with 3 rails through traffic going across the line getting on the 8 ball (the proverbial "up hill both ways" )to have whitey stop on the dime. Vince looking surprised said, "I didn't know You could shoot."

 

[gregcantrall]

80s/ 90s eara would be my pool history. 84 at Ceasars Tahoe began my pro tournament exposure, with the Reno Sands being my yearly vacation(hopefully). Didn't make it every year but made it enough to learn and gain inspiration. 89 was the year I made it to the finals of "The Big Show" at The White Spot. Part of my inspiration to come back and win The Point from down 6-2 going to 7, was knowing that a friend (Mike Sentz) had bet on me.......The reality (and giggle)was the size of the bet. $5 Hey a vote of confidence for Me against a player unknown to me from Tri Cities. eek! Bobby McDonald (if I remember). He had dispatched Dan Louie was all I knew.
The self to self talk as I racked the balls for his final break is burned into the memory banks.

 

[garczar]

I'm a nobody but I guarantee you a G10 joint feels different than a steel joint. I can't say that one is better or worse but it's all about how the vibrations travel through the cue. It's a feel thing. The way the cue tingles in your grip hand.

If there were ten cues with the joints completely taped-over could you tell which one had a G10 pin?? I seriously doubt anyone could. Its pretty solidly established that the joint contributes very little to the 'hit/feel' of a cue. I have not owned but i've hit with a few G10 pin cues from basic sneaky to hi-end Cog and if blindfolded i couldn't pick one out by the hit. IMO best thing about G10 is the super light weight and how it aids in balancing certain cues/woods.

 

[gregcantrall]

This clip from Tin Cup runs parallel to my experience going helpless to fall behind 6-2.

 

[maha]

some good n.w. native players came from up there few ever heard of. like david rhodes who died young,
stuttering rich geiler.

 

[gregcantrall]

Rich was known as The Hat for his trademark Panama Hat. Dan Louie was easily number 1 in the Northwest. The spoken complaint against Danny was, "he shoots Sooooo slow". The full complaint was "He shoots so slow and Never misses. " On 2 occasions in the finals Danny won 7-6 after trailing 6-0. My seeing that made my recovery from 6-2 deficit to be uh well okay.
The twice a year weekend bar box 9 ball tournament at The White Spot in Fife brough players from the entire west coast. Swany even made it once. Flyboy stopped in on a Sunday to watch one year. David Rhoades was an incredible talent and I am saddened to hear of his passing. David speaking of The Big Eye is my clearest memory of what I learned from him. Ooops that's "The Big I".....Imaginuation. He put an incredible Imagination on display. Anyway he impressed on me the importance of imagining the shot to completion before getting down.
The Wednesday night 9 ball in the 80s carried on a long time. After a while Lenny started a bulletin board where the weekly winners were posted and the results formed a book of stacked butcher paper results. The Z, Mike Zimmerman definitely owned the record for winning the weekly. One year he played Danny in the finals of the big event. He had a full length walking cast on one leg and raced around the table. Kibitzing Danny for slow playing him as he hobled and shot rapid fire.

 

[gregcantrall]

Jim Ward was the elder of the Native American players in the Northwest. Marve White was another native player that would get in the ring game with the Big Boys. Jim Ward won a race to 9 tournament from the losers side with a pair of 9 rack packages.

 

[hurricane145]

I think it was 82 when I started my pool education at The White Spot in Fife. By about 87 I hit the East side living in Bellevue and working Woodinville. I rarely ever ventured to the West side. I played the little $5 tournaments every night with in a reasonable radius . Averaged $250 a week as a hobby while working construction.

I used to carpool down there with Larry Nelson and Kirbie Predmore (RIP, both of you) once in a while. They were Wednesday night tournaments so we had to have a bye in league play to go.
A friend and myself used to fill our freezers with meat shoot winnings from local tavern tournaments with $3 entry fees. They were easy pickins! He wasn't working at the time and said he never ate so well when he wasn't working!

The majority of my bar box income came with the plain Jane Pettit $60 cue he made from recycled 211 broken stuff.

I still have my old sneaky that Roger made from back then. I still use it from time to time. Can't part with it but have been offered quite a bit for it a couple times in the past.

 

[hurricane145]

Our ring games varied slightly from house to house.

A friend and myself got in a rig game of 3 ball one night in some tavern in White Center. There were 6 or 7 guys in it for a quarter a game and a dime a scratch and one tie all tie. It went on for hours! My friend finally won it. He spent quite some time the next afternoon putting all the change in rolls to take to the bank. I don't remember how much $ but it was a surprising amount for playing 3 ball. We were out looking for games and it was the only one we found. It was a hoot to play. We all had a lot of fun.

 

[gregcantrall]

A friend and myself used to fill our freezers with meat shoot winnings from local tavern tournaments with $3 entry fees.

Sounds like the Friday night meat shoot at McCorie's On the Slough in Woodinville. It was always full at 32 players. The theory behind meat shots was to discourage the Money players. Most money players eat meat. The McCories tables were 8 foot with slippery cloth and 5 inch corner pockets with a generous cut. One time I got 3rd place and never missed a ball.
I do remember Larry Nelson and encountered him mostly on the north end.
My favorite $3 tournament was at Grannies in Federal Way on Saturday night. It paid high lady and was run by Gin a lady that did the draw and played. Quite often I got a lady in the first round. My wife often got Rick Hodge. Rick on one occasion bragged about tipping $5 for a good draw. Ladies money was usually in the $30 range. At one point the field was large enough that first place paid $112. I won the first time that it paid over 100. The next week The Hat was there. Rick Hodge always MCed a 1 and 2 ring game that started early and ran until tournament. With respot in play Rick held the record of two fives and 3 nines. He was oh so close to the 4th 9. Shrug

 

[gregcantrall]

A friend and myself got in a rig game of 3 ball one night in some tavern in White Center. There were 6 or 7 guys in it for a quarter a game and a dime a scratch and one tie all tie. It went on for hours! My friend finally won it. He spent quite some time the next afternoon putting all the change in rolls to take to the bank. I don't remember how much $ but it was a surprising amount for playing 3 ball. We were out looking for games and it was the only one we found. It was a hoot to play. We all had a lot of fun.

The Golde Bear in the valley near the Boeing plant had a regular dollar 3 ball game. Seems the Kirby vacuum clean sales worked near there and they loved 3 ball. My first visit to the game had me posting a 2 with a $128 pot with 10 players in the game a 3 was rarely going to be good. My 2 was tied by a guy that hadn't made a point all day.
I once broke the quarter machine at The White Spot. (My home court). We were playing 9 ball for a quarter on the 5 and 50 cents on the 9. I was so dominating the game that the other players refused to give me a dollar bill. No one would quit though. They were priced in. So $35 dollars in quarters was fun.

 

[hurricane145]

The White Spot.

One time we were there for the 9 ball tournament. I had an easy 3 ball out on a guy. I got down on the first ball and felt a stool or chair up against me. I stayed down and just looked back to move it with my foot. Bad idea!! When I looked forward again at my shot, the cue ball was rolling away, I had bumped it with my cue! FOUL! BIH! And I am a LOSER! It wasn't funny then but it sure is now!!

 

[Mensabum]

I'm a nobody but I guarantee you a G10 joint feels different than a steel joint. I can't say that one is better or worse but it's all about how the vibrations travel through the cue. It's a feel thing. The way the cue tingles in your grip hand.

Doesn't matter if you're nobody, I'ma nobody as well. No matter what those so called tests show or say, the old school players I learned from could tell the difference between joints by the hit.
Perhaps some players are blessed w a better tensile ability - an extra sensory touch - than most others. Superior hand/eye is a must for Pros, Pilots and a few other specialties. Lol. They chose their cues based on this ability. I've heard about this from Louie, Mike, Grady, Larry, and a list of others from back in the day. According to those 1% ers, they told me they had the ability to tell the difference, is all I'm saying. As a reality based thinker, I have to admit the possibility this is all bunk and every one of those aforementioned champions were deluding themselves.
If someone was willing to set up a test, I'd be happy to let them try to fool me or shut me up on this topic once and for all. And I would bow out gracefully after making a blanket apology. Until then, I remain amongst those so called delusional old school guys who claim to be able to tell the difference by feel alone.
I'm here for all comers.
Somebody please, shut me up. Lol.
Thanks for the reply boogieman!!

 

[Mensabum]

Doesn't matter if you're nobody, I'ma nobody as well. No matter what those so called tests show or say, the old school players I learned from could tell the difference between joints by the hit.
Perhaps some players are blessed w a better tensile ability - an extra sensory touch - than most others. Superior hand/eye is a must for Pros, Pilots and a few other specialties. Lol. They chose their cues based on this ability. I've heard about this from Louie, Mike, Grady, Larry, and a list of others from back in the day. According to those 1% ers, they told me they had the ability to tell the difference, is all I'm saying. As a reality based thinker, I have to admit the possibility this is all bunk and every one of those aforementioned champions were deluding themselves.
If someone was willing to set up a test, I'd be happy to let them try to fool me or shut me up on this topic once and for all. And I would bow out gracefully after making a blanket apology. Until then, I remain amongst those so called delusional old school guys who claim to be able to tell the difference by feel alone.
I'm here for all comers.
Somebody please, shut me up. Lol.
Thanks for the reply boogieman!!

Let me also add that cues of that era had mostly Triangle, Elkmaster or LePro tips.
Hard tips. Long Ferrules, many Ivory.
The Layered Tip hadn't hit the market yet, so LD shafts, Carbon fiber and all those bells and whistles weren't available and this may have attributed positively to said aforementioned ability to tell the difference.
All things being equal, it levelled that playing field considerably.
Add in all the accessories available today makes this quite a different matter altogether.
IMHO, makes it far more difficult to tell the difference between joints today.
Perhaps I should have included all this in my original post on the subject. I may have gotten replies other than those I received thus far.

 

[Mensabum]

One time we were there for the 9 ball tournament. I had an easy 3 ball out on a guy. I got down on the first ball and felt a stool or chair up against me. I stayed down and just looked back to move it with my foot. Bad idea!! When I looked forward again at my shot, the cue ball was rolling away, I had bumped it with my cue! FOUL! BIH! And I am a LOSER! It wasn't funny then but it sure is now!!

All of us who've played under pressure for coun have made mistakes similar to or exactly the same as yours. I must be mentally challenged, as I've done things like that several times!!
I was supposed to learn from the first one. Lol.
Different game back then. Not as stiff on sharking and rules. Guys didn't call petty fouls on players like I've seen happen nowadays.
Granted, a fouls a foul, but leniency towards another champion who deserved your respect for what they brought to the game was often given, especially on petty things like shirts and such. We just put the ball back where it was and made light of it by saying "I'll put em where I need em, one way or the other."Lol.
Apologies. Hijacking was not my intent.