8 Ball - Attack, Attack, Attack!

[Cdryden]

20 So don't be suprised, be the type of person that passively puts people down and always thinks they're right on an online pool forum...wait.

Maybe you should state that you only want people who completely agree with you to reply to your posts in the future. There is nothing passive about my statements in this thread, I thought I was being quite obvious that I disagree with you.

I just don't get the mentality of people who think a strategy should be completely 1 sided. All offense or all defense. It takes both. But that's the nice thing about this game, you are free to play it however you like.

 

[CreeDo]

Impressive you could give credit where it's due, a lot of guys would suffer that kind of loss and say
"Well he got lucky that one time but if we played more matches I'd slaughter him". You have a good attitude.

The effectiveness of safeties depends the level of the players. At the pro level they try to run out
(and nearly always succeed) even if it means trying some very tough cuts.
It's fair to say Shane vs. Busty was AttackAttackAttack.

But that only works because they have the ability to play delicate position through traffic and into small windows,
and they can settle for difficult shots and still make them. They also realize that the other player is at a level
where if you try to play safe and sell out any sort of shot, they'll take it and probably sink it.

Normal humans who miss balls every day can't get away with that kind of aggressive style, and therefore
should be looking to safe more often. The good news is safeties work great vs. non-pros (as you found out)...
often leading to either BIH or a sellout.

I advise against any mindset about playing "styles", a lot of guys shoot bad pool and say "yeah but that's my style".
I would try to play as if there are no styles. Just weigh the pros and cons of each shot and then shoot or safe accordingly.
Just be honest with yourself about your odds of making the ball and running out, vs. the odds of getting back to the table
with a better layout than you currently have.

 

[Pidge]

Impressive you could give credit where it's due, a lot of guys would suffer that kind of loss and say
"Well he got lucky that one time but if we played more matches I'd slaughter him". You have a good attitude.

The effectiveness of safeties depends the level of the players. At the pro level they try to run out
(and nearly always succeed) even if it means trying some very tough cuts.
It's fair to say Shane vs. Busty was AttackAttackAttack.

But that only works because they have the ability to play delicate position through traffic and into small windows,
and they can settle for difficult shots and still make them. They also realize that the other player is at a level
where if you try to play safe and sell out any sort of shot, they'll take it and probably sink it.

Normal humans who miss balls every day can't get away with that kind of aggressive style, and therefore
should be looking to safe more often. The good news is safeties work great vs. non-pros (as you found out)...
often leading to either BIH or a sellout.

I advise against any mindset about playing "styles", a lot of guys shoot bad pool and say "yeah but that's my style".
I would try to play as if there are no styles. Just weigh the pros and cons of each shot and then shoot or safe accordingly.
Just be honest with yourself about your odds of making the ball and running out, vs. the odds of getting back to the table
with a better layout than you currently have.

Thanks for the advice. If I had the game again I would wait and bide my time, try and kick out of a situation with saftey in mind rather than thinking I'm going to make the kick. definitely a learning experience I'm sure ill be grateful for in the long run. He said any time I want a few friendly games he would be up for it, so I might arrange a game with one condition - he has to teach me safety play and his thinking behind it.

Thanks again,

 

[JAM]

I'm thinking that you are playing the same people in poker that you are in pool. Aggressive style is rewarding it's true, but it must be tempered with the wisdom of when to lay it down. Same for pool, knowing that you can't always go for it and to play the odds is how players survive the long hauls, especially against people who think as you do. Easy pickings for the most part. I guess PT Barnum was right.

Good advice! :smile:

 

[allanpsand]

You were following the philosophy of all offense, all the time.

Your opponent used a different approach - he wasn't trying to win - he was helping you lose.

When you didn't recognize his tactical choices - and respond to them - you pretty much guaranteed losing.

Strategies are based on the opponent. Then, tactics can be selected based on the table layout and his strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Banks]

I'm two hours late for lunch, so I may not have caught it right, but..

You ran out every other rack from the break, but couldn't beat a safety player? Something's not quite adding up there. Either way, if you can't beat the guy, you should pick up parts of his game. Not only that, but put yourself into those funny situations and see how different responses work.

 

[Pidge]

I'm two hours late for lunch, so I may not have caught it right, but..

You ran out every other rack from the break, but couldn't beat a safety player? Something's not quite adding up there. Either way, if you can't beat the guy, you should pick up parts of his game. Not only that, but put yourself into those funny situations and see how different responses work.

The guy didn't just play safe, he was more than capable of clearing the table as he did in the previous frames he won. But his safety game was very strong. Every kick I had just didn't make a ball or go safe, always left him with a pot, or a chance to play a good safety. Since he had a cluster and no easy shot to go into them he elected to play safe. I just didn't understand why he chose spots. Yes there was a pot on, and there was no opening shot on stripes, but stripes were wide open and he was more than capable of clearing the stripes. If that was me I'd elect to play a shot that left no shot on a stripe, until I had a clear shot on a stripe. Maybe that's just me, but I'm guessing that's the way most players would elect to play.

In the end I really enjoyed the match, learned a lot, had a few beers and lots of laughs during the game. I would rather lose having a good time than win sweating.

 

[quadrary]

to me it depends on who the opponent is.

If I am playing someone who can run out easily I will be playing safe more. If you take am aggressive shot against a strong player and miss you will probably lose. If I am playing a weaker player I might be more aggressive knowing he probably can't run out.

the old saying goes if your playing 8 ball and your balls are off the table and your not shooting you are losing

 

[Banks]

The guy didn't just play safe, he was more than capable of clearing the table as he did in the previous frames he won. But his safety game was very strong. Every kick I had just didn't make a ball or go safe, always left him with a pot, or a chance to play a good safety. Since he had a cluster and no easy shot to go into them he elected to play safe. I just didn't understand why he chose spots. Yes there was a pot on, and there was no opening shot on stripes, but stripes were wide open and he was more than capable of clearing the stripes. If that was me I'd elect to play a shot that left no shot on a stripe, until I had a clear shot on a stripe. Maybe that's just me, but I'm guessing that's the way most players would elect to play.

In the end I really enjoyed the match, learned a lot, had a few beers and lots of laughs during the game. I would rather lose having a good time than win sweating.

That's part of the problem with playing "friendly" during your spare time. If you don't try safeties out, you're more liable to make mistakes when attempting them and may not even recognize certain ones. Clusters and strange layouts begin to present different opportunities once you can spot them. He may have noticed a safety that he's strong at and played it through to completion.

Who was it.. Lou or PJ or somebody, with the quote that said something to the effect of: "Playing to win and playing not to lose, they may look the same, but there's a difference." When I'm faced with stronger opponents, I try to play the not-to-lose style. If they're getting out, it's because they earned it, not because I gave it to them.

Small things, like caroming in a ball off of your opponent's into the side so that you can put theirs on the rail next to the pocket. You mention above playing to not leave the opponent a shot. That's not a bad idea, but leaving them a shot where you control what they're able to do, that can be just as big - leaving them straight in on their next-to-last ball, unable to breakout their last.. etc.

Patience, grasshoppa.

 

[Pidge]

That's part of the problem with playing "friendly" during your spare time. If you don't try safeties out, you're more liable to make mistakes when attempting them and may not even recognize certain ones. Clusters and strange layouts begin to present different opportunities once you can spot them. He may have noticed a safety that he's strong at and played it through to completion.

Who was it.. Lou or PJ or somebody, with the quote that said something to the effect of: "Playing to win and playing not to lose, they may look the same, but there's a difference." When I'm faced with stronger opponents, I try to play the not-to-lose style. If they're getting out, it's because they earned it, not because I gave it to them.

Small things, like caroming in a ball off of your opponent's into the side so that you can put theirs on the rail next to the pocket. You mention above playing to not leave the opponent a shot. That's not a bad idea, but leaving them a shot where you control what they're able to do, that can be just as big - leaving them straight in on their next-to-last ball, unable to breakout their last.. etc.

Patience, grasshoppa.

"Playing not to lose". That's a great way to look at it. Clearly this guy already knew this pearl of wisdom. He had atleast 25 years more experience on his side. I'm not nearly as comfortable playing 8 ball as I am snooker. In snooker a good safety is considered leaving distance between CB and OB with the white close to the cusion leaving just a follow shot. That just doesn't work on a 9ft K-Steel with meteor craters for pockets. My eyes are wide open now as to what a "good safe" is.

 

[Banks]

"Playing not to lose". That's a great way to look at it. Clearly this guy already knew this pearl of wisdom. He had atleast 25 years more experience on his side. I'm not nearly as comfortable playing 8 ball as I am snooker. In snooker a good safety is considered leaving distance between CB and OB with the white close to the cusion leaving just a follow shot. That just doesn't work on a 9ft K-Steel with meteor craters for pockets. My eyes are wide open now as to what a "good safe" is.

I hear you. I've only been playing for about 8 years. My first couple of years, I learned early on that playing old-timers meant that they may not be able to make all the shots any more, but they know a hundred different ways to hose you. It sounds like this end-of-season loss will really stick, so there shouldn't be too long of a wait before your game starts to change. Good luck in the next season.. just imagine how they'd feel about playing you when you not only out-shoot them, but out-play them as well.