8-ball "obvious" call shot ?

[cannonball]

Regarding the following BCA rule:

"Call Shot, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated. It is the opponent's right to ask which ball and pocket if he is unsure of the shot. Bank shots and combination shots are not considered obvious, and care should be taken in calling both the object ball and the intended pocket. When calling the shot, it is never necessary to indicate details such as the number of cushions, banks, kisses, caroms, etc."

If there is a question on what the intended shot is by the opponent (not a bank or carom/billiard) when does this question need to be raised? I had an opponent in BCA league ask after I took and made my intended shot. He stated that he could call a foul on me, since my intended shot was not obvious to him. I replied that I had made my intended shot (although uncalled, 6 in the 6 pocket) and that we could start calling every shot through the game to the end to ensure there is no confusion.

 

[softshot]

the opponent can always ask..

. as well as reject a rack

or call a ref in tricky situations.....

if you don't see his shot ... ask....

if it could go more than one way.... ask...


or quit complaining...

 

[steev]

My rule on calling is, if you hit a ball, and it goes in a pocket, with no rails or other contacts, it was obvious. As a courtesy, I will also call shots which could be to more than one pocket (side vs corner usually) like this one:

CueTable Help

When shooting the five here, I would indicate corner or side. But I don't think it's necessary.

-s

 

[Johnnyt]

When I play call pocket anything I call everything. Even if it's 2" from a pocket I call, "2-ball in corner". Too many nits out there and it is a throw back from all the 14.1 I played. Most will get sick of you calling every shot and tell you you don't have to call everything. It's a reverse shark. Johnnyt

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Regarding the following BCA rule:

"Call Shot, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated. It is the opponent's right to ask which ball and pocket if he is unsure of the shot. Bank shots and combination shots are not considered obvious, and care should be taken in calling both the object ball and the intended pocket. When calling the shot, it is never necessary to indicate details such as the number of cushions, banks, kisses, caroms, etc."

If there is a question on what the intended shot is by the opponent (not a bank or carom/billiard) when does this question need to be raised?

Obviously, before the shot.

pj
chgo

 

[dfweyer]

I guy on my team lost a game when a guy was obviously trying to play the 6 from his preshot routine. But then made the 5 and CHEATED saying he changed his mind on the shot to take.

CueTable Help

 

[Thunderball]

I will also call shots which could be to more than one pocket (side vs corner usually) like this one:

I don't get it Steev.That eight clearly plays in the side.

Or banks) ( )

 

[memikey]

With respect I don't think the two answers so far are dealing with what the opening poster was asking. I think his question probably meant "when" in the sense at what point in execution of the shot is the right to 'ask' lost, not in the sense of what kind of shot needs to be called.

The answer, as far as normal tournament interpretation of the WPA rules are concerned, is before the cue ball is stroked. If the opponent doesn't ask for the 'obvious' ball and pocket to be identified before that point and if the object ball first contacted by the cue ball is pocketed without coming off a rail or another ball he will have lost the right to question it at all.

Of course if an uncalled object ball goes in off a rail or is caromed in etc it isn't by definition an 'obvious' ball in the first place as far as the rules are concerned and therefore the shooters turn is automatically over without any need for the opponent to even question it.

As far as I know BCA Rules mirror WPA Rules but of course any Tournament Director can instigate amended local rules if they wish.....see EDIT

Hope this helps :smile:

Edit....it was only two answers when slowcoach here was typing his, lol

Edit 2 ....I've now seen the latest published BCA league Rules and they don't mirror WPA Rules in this respect....thanks Tom In Cincy.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

You are correct about the BCA and WPA rules.

I was under the impression this was the BCA League rule, they are new and separate from the WPA and BCA (industry based org)

www.playbca.com for league rules.

As far as I know BCA Rules mirror WPA Rules but of course any Tournament Director can instigate amended local rules if they wish.

 

[vagabond]

Regarding the following BCA rule:

"Call Shot, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated. It is the opponent's right to ask which ball and pocket if he is unsure of the shot. Bank shots QUOTE]

That rule adds to one more argument in playing 8 ball.There are some who are very contemptuous towards social norms, have no repect for rules,have no respect for authority and these people are not going to call any shot because they believe even the bank and combination shots are obvious shots to their mind.Then the trouble comes.

 

[spoons]

To answer the original question, your opponent would have had to raise his question before the shot. I think you did the right thing by offering to call all shots, because what's obvious to you could simply be different from what's obvious to your opponent. The only way to absolutely avoid confusion is to call every shot. Ball and pocket.

Of course if an uncalled object ball goes in off a rail or is caromed in etc it isn't by definition an 'obvious' ball in the first place as far as the rules are concerned and therefore the shooters turn is automatically over without any need for the opponent to even question it.

I've seen more people lately take liberties with this rule than I care to remember. (yes, mostly nits) At which point does a "kiss" become a "carom?" Take these two end game scenarios, for example.

The first page is a "big pocket" situation and you might choose to hold your cue ball up for the 8. You might undercut the 5 ball a little bit on accident because you're worried about hooking yourself on the 14, and that might cause the 5 to "kiss" the 9 on the way in.

Should that be different from the situation on page 2, where you play the 5 ball off the 9 to clear the way for the 4 ball?

CueTable Help

It's essentially the same shot, and could very much look the same to an observer. However, by my understanding of the definitions, one is clearly a kiss and the other is clearly a carom. Do you need to call both? Where do you draw the line?

It takes a true nit to call something like that, but by the rules, could they?

 

[shayla]

Good question. If I were the opponent, I would definitely question before the cueball is struck. I would think if I waited until after they made the shot, I would then forfeit any right to question the shot.

The only time I play 8-ball is in Vegas, and by the 9-ball rules I play by in tournaments, the shot always goes to the shooter if the opponent didn't call a referee before the shot. Is this the case in BCA 8-Ball?

 

[tksix]

Spoons: whether it is a kiss or carom in BCA rules is irrelevant. It is ball pocket. Not how it gets to the pocket.

dfweyer: that would make me NUTS if someone pulled that on me.

Our 8-ball league has some high talent, manly BCA & ACS master players. Very seldom is shot ever called. You just know what they are doing. I would say more players call fouls on themselves than the other way around.

If I were in a tourney and a shot looked questionable, I would ask the shooter before he started stroking the cue. That way I wouldn't interrupt his game. If a hit looks questionable, prior to him or her shooting I would call someone to watch and live with their call.

Mike

 

[memikey]

To answer the original question, your opponent would have had to raise his question before the shot. I think you did the right thing by offering to call all shots, because what's obvious to you could simply be different from what's obvious to your opponent. The only way to absolutely avoid confusion is to call every shot. Ball and pocket.




I've seen more people lately take liberties with this rule than I care to remember. (yes, mostly nits) At which point does a "kiss" become a "carom?" Take these two end game scenarios, for example.

The first page is a "big pocket" situation and you might choose to hold your cue ball up for the 8. You might undercut the 5 ball a little bit on accident because you're worried about hooking yourself on the 14, and that might cause the 5 to "kiss" the 9 on the way in.

Should that be different from the situation on page 2, where you play the 5 ball off the 9 to clear the way for the 4 ball?

CueTable Help

It's essentially the same shot, and could very much look the same to an observer. However, by my understanding of the definitions, one is clearly a kiss and the other is clearly a carom. Do you need to call both? Where do you draw the line?

It takes a true nit to call something like that, but by the rules, could they?

Good post. Know what you mean. Have seen it cause problems.

As regards the bolded bit at the end.....yep it takes a nit but by normal international tournaments' interpretation of WPA rules yes they certainly could legitimately call foul.

Personally I could never bring myself to make that foul call unless I was playing some twat who had already shown themselves to be a severe nit earlier in the match and deserved retaliation, highly unlikely though. :smile:

As regards when does a kiss become a carom the answer is "never". A kiss involves the cue ball making first contact with the called object ball which then contacts another ball. A carom involves the cue ball making first contact with a ball other than the called object ball and then contacting the object ball.

They are two different things. In published BCA League Rules I understand that difference is to a degree irrelevant to the subject of this thread anyway because it is only banks, kicks and combinations which need to be called. Neither a kiss nor a carom is a combination shot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

At which point does a "kiss" become a "carom?"

Where do you draw the line?

You draw the line where it becomes a reasonable question which ball or pocket is intended. I don't think that's a reasonable question for either of the shots you diagrammed, so you shouldn't have to call the shots.

I don't think whether or not you intended the carom is relevant (even though you could read the rules that way).

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

Regarding the following BCA rule:

"Call Shot, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated. It is the opponent's right to ask which ball and pocket if he is unsure of the shot. Bank shots and combination shots are not considered obvious, and care should be taken ...

For nearly all shots, the ball and pocket are obvious. If there is no ball or safe called, a reasonable assumption is that the player is trying the first ball struck. Nearly always, it is obvious which pocket it's going to, although there is an exception diagrammed above -- opponent cuts a ball thin into the side when intending a completely different ball. In that case, I would have just asked, "Is that the shot you intended?" and accepted the answer with a note to never, ever trust that player in the future.

In the case of the obvious ball going into the pocket in a strange manner, the ball was obvious and the only pocket that didn't involve a bank was obvious, so to me the call is obvious. If I'm called over in that situation by the opponent, the opponent gets an unsportsmanlike conduct warning.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Under what rule would constitute an unsportsmanlike conduct warning?

Would it be the opponent not knowing the rules? or talking to a player while still at the table? or delay of game for calling you over?

Just curious Bob, no slam intended.

In the case of the obvious ball going into the pocket in a strange manner, the ball was obvious and the only pocket that didn't involve a bank was obvious, so to me the call is obvious. If I'm called over in that situation by the opponent, the opponent gets an unsportsmanlike conduct warning.

 

[tjlmbklr]

Regarding the following BCA rule:

"Call Shot, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated. It is the opponent's right to ask which ball and pocket if he is unsure of the shot. Bank shots and combination shots are not considered obvious, and care should be taken in calling both the object ball and the intended pocket. When calling the shot, it is never necessary to indicate details such as the number of cushions, banks, kisses, caroms, etc."

If there is a question on what the intended shot is by the opponent (not a bank or carom/billiard) when does this question need to be raised? I had an opponent in BCA league ask after I took and made my intended shot. He stated that he could call a foul on me, since my intended shot was not obvious to him. I replied that I had made my intended shot (although uncalled, 6 in the 6 pocket) and that we could start calling every shot through the game to the end to ensure there is no confusion.

Unfortunately what I think/feel can't be said in this situation. But that person is just being a sore loser. If the shot was obvious and went in the side for example as apposed to a bank then either you are one hella-va poor shot to miss by that much or maybe just maybe that's the pocket you intended. I on the other always call the "possibly to be confused un-obvious shots"; banks, caroms/kisses, combos...etc, etc. But I always always no matter how easy or obvious the shot call the 8 ball.


Just me though...rules are rules.

IMO

 

[tucson9ball]

Original Post....

To answer the original question, your opponent would have had to raise his question before the shot. I think you did the right thing by offering to call all shots, because what's obvious to you could simply be different from what's obvious to your opponent. The only way to absolutely avoid confusion is to call every shot. Ball and pocket.




I've seen more people lately take liberties with this rule than I care to remember. (yes, mostly nits) At which point does a "kiss" become a "carom?" Take these two end game scenarios, for example.

The first page is a "big pocket" situation and you might choose to hold your cue ball up for the 8. You might undercut the 5 ball a little bit on accident because you're worried about hooking yourself on the 14, and that might cause the 5 to "kiss" the 9 on the way in.

Should that be different from the situation on page 2, where you play the 5 ball off the 9 to clear the way for the 4 ball?

CueTable Help

It's essentially the same shot, and could very much look the same to an observer. However, by my understanding of the definitions, one is clearly a kiss and the other is clearly a carom. Do you need to call both? Where do you draw the line?

It takes a true nit to call something like that, but by the rules, could they?

Answer would be no, you only call ball and pocket. 5 ball is obviously going in corner pocket on both scenarios. No kisses or caroms need be called.Hope this helps.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I agree with Steev. If a ball goes into a pocket with conviction, it was the obvious shot (single rail banks / combos included). If I bank cross-corner with the rail contact point near the side pocket, I'll announce my intention.

The bottom line is this never comes up when two players are playing, ever. This only comes up with someone trying to shark you and steal an inning.

It is what it is.