8-ball rule question: pocket object ball in wrong pocket = ball in hand?

Z

zhouray

Registered
If I pocket the object ball I intended to make in the wrong pocket, does my opponent has ball-in-hand? How about if i was trying to make the 3-ball, but then I made the 5-ball , but didn't sink the 3-ball. What should happen?

My friend and I was trying to follow the IPT rules, but these situation wasn't included explicitly.

Thanks for any help.
 
I am not familiar with IPT rules, but typically that situation would only constitute a loss of inning, not ball in hand.
 
We used to use that rule too.

we had a situation where I sunk my object ball in a wrong pocket, and hence my inning ended. But the cue ball ends up in an safety position and my friend thought it was unfair. So he thinks it should be ball in hand instead.
 
Just loss of turn. Sometimes if you intend to pocket a ball and don't want to shoot again you can call safety or call the ball into a pocket that has no chance. This stratagy is sometimes used in any call pocket eight ball game.
 
There are many different sets of rules for 8-ball, instead of following one set of rules, I prefer to play with rules that makes more sense, or more fair.

If you intend to pocket a ball or make a move but for position or whatever reason you want to end your inning right after, you have the choice to call for a safety. You know what you want to do, you do it, you leave a terrible situation for your opponent. He has no say, that's fair.

If you intend to pocket a ball in one pocket but for whatever reason you miss that pocket but it drops in another pocket, then you're just lucky. You didn't do the right thing, you called the wrong pocket. You should be penalized, or at least not to have an advantage from doing the wrong thing. Ending your inning might be a punishment but it might not always be. For instance, the cue ball could be left in a terrible position for your opponent. Then he/she is the one really being penalized. That doesn't seem too fair.

I think the spirit of the rules should penalize those who do the wrong things, and try to eliminate the luck factor.

What do you guys think?
 
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Penalties are for fouls, not for misses. It doesn't matter where the missed ball goes.

The shooter is actually 'penalized' twice - once by having to give up the table to the opponent, and a second time by the fact that he has one less ball interfering with his opponent's runout. It's much better to miss and leave a ball hanging in front of a pocket (and/or block the opponent's balls) than to have it drop in.

"But what if his miss leaves the opponent with a crappy position?"

That can happen on any miss. There will be some luck in any game, we don't need to invent special bar fouls to punish people for getting lucky. In fact, when faced with difficult shots... good players often try to leave the cueball where they know the opponent will be snookered if they miss.

A simple rule of thumb to use on what rule sets are valid and which are silly bar rules is this - the rules they use on ESPN are probably the ones you should use. 8-ball is weirdly rare on ESPN, so if you want a recommendation... I think the BCA rules are perfect, very fair. Nobody gets a huge reward or a huge penalty for things that are lucky and beyond their control. These rules are probably identical to what they use in high level tournament games.
 
I'm confused. Can someone please clarify about the IPT rules at http://www.internationalpooltour.com/ipt_content/ipt_rules/default.asp ?

Section 7 says it is a called shot game, so you need to call an object ball and a pocket. Clearly, if you pocket that called ball in the called pocket legally, you continue to shoot. And if nothing drops, then your turn simply ends. But there are two cases that I am confused: 1) the ball you called drops in another pocket 2) the ball you called doesn't drop but another one of your balls drops.

Now section 7 says nothing about both cases. In section 8, assuming you shoot legally, then both cases fall into category c) so it is not a foul. Then section 9 says you can continue to shoot. Is that correct? If yes, then it seems contradictory to me, namely, as long as you shoot legally and any one of your balls drop then you can continue, so it's not a called shot game?!
 
Section 7 covers calling pocket....sections 8 and 9 is simply clarifying what is required to avoid a foul(you have to hit you're ball first and a ball has to contact a rail)
 
and in the APA....

PoolSharkAllen said:
Under BCA rules, if you pocket a called shot in the wrong pocket, your inning is over. :eek: Your opponent does not get BIH. Ditto for pocketing the wrong ball.

Check out this web site for the BCA rules on playing 8-ball:
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/
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also!!!!!! as long as it was a "legal" hit !
ie: you hit your own object ball first and some ball hit a rail afterwards :)
 
If you hit a legal object ball (execpt the 8) and it goes in the the wrong pocket it is a lose of turn. If there is a legal hit and any other ball falls (except the 8) the ball stays down and it is a loss of turn.
BIH results from cue ball fouls or all ball fouls if you are playing all ball fouls rule.
IMO the player should have to call ball and pocket. He shouldn't have to call a safety but it must be a legal hit. I also don't believe that calling every kiss and carom is necessary. If you call the 5 in the corner, it shouldn't matter how it gets there as long as the correct ball falls in the correct pocket and the hit is legal.

Banger McCue
 
Lun@ticfringe said:
Section 7 covers calling pocket....sections 8 and 9 is simply clarifying what is required to avoid a foul(you have to hit you're ball first and a ball has to contact a rail)
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Yes, and a pocket is considered to be part of the rail thus falling in a pocket is the same as hitting a rail. Not a Foul
Zhouray, Just tell your buddy to quit whining and learn the rules.:p
 
Something else in to keep in mind.....

Using the incomplete or faulty ruleset of a functionally defunct (IPT)organization may not be the best idea.

BCA rules are pretty much the way to go.
 
supergreenman said:
Something else in to keep in mind.....

Using the incomplete or faulty ruleset of a functionally defunct (IPT)organization may not be the best idea.

BCA rules are pretty much the way to go.
Click to expand...

I understand that there the hit has to be legal and it doesn't matter how the called ball goes into the called pocket. I play with the "end of inning" rule too. But can anyone confirm that there is indeed a contradiction in the IPT rules regarding the two cases in post #8? Or if there is no contradiction, how does IPT deal with it?

Is the BCA rules http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/wsr-intro.shtml exactly the same as the WPBA rules http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules ?
 
I don't see a contradiction, but I do think they should make it clearer.

"As long as a player shoots a legal shot (see 8.0) and the object ball called is pocketed in the called pocket, no matter how it gets there, the shot is good."

This is badly worded because "the shot is good" is supposed to mean both A: you didn't commit a foul and
B: it went in the called pocket.

For years people have used the sort of slangy phrase 'the hit is good' or 'that shot was no good' to say that a shot was legal or a foul. So by writing 'the shot is good' they kinda imply the shot is 'no good' if either A. or B. fail to happen. And since we translate 'no good' to mean 'foul'... we get situations like yours where making called ball in another pocket looks like it might be a foul on paper. In addition, section 9 makes the confusion worse because it implies you get to keep shooting as long as you pocket one of the balls in your group: "A player continues to play until he fails to pocket a ball that corresponds to his ball group". It would be fine if they changed "a ball" to "a called shot" but they were a little lazy about spelling it out. For a big money event, it should be spelled out.

Incidentally greenman has it right. Even if the IPT rules pretty much are exactly the same as 'official' bca rules, you don't want to look for official rules from an organization that's only a couple of years old (nevermind that it blew up and failed). You want to look to the larger, older, and more respected organizations.

They should reword that section and additionally spell out those situations like right ball in the wrong pocket.
 
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MrLucky said:
also!!!!!! as long as it was a "legal" hit !
ie: you hit your own object ball first and some ball hit a rail afterwards :)
Click to expand...

Lets say for aguement sake..........that the guy was trying a combo, and he called the 5, but the 7 fell instead.

Lets say he contacted the 7 first...........which is legal. The 7 fell, and nothing hit a rail.

He looses the turn because he called the 5.

It is not ball in hand though because the 7 falling in the pocket is considered the rail.

The pockets are considered rails.

That is why you can take a straight in shot on something like the 8, and just stop your cue ball. The cue ball doesn't have to hit the rail because the eight fell in the pocket, and pockets are considered rails.

Make sense?
 
CreeDo said:
Incidentally greenman has it right. Even if the IPT rules pretty much are exactly the same as 'official' bca rules, you don't want to look for official rules from an organization that's only a couple of years old (nevermind that it blew up and failed). You want to look to the larger, older, and more respected organizations.
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(off topic)

I think BCA has it that a foul on the break results in cue ball behind the string. Can someone explain the rational behind that please? I prefer ball in hand anywhere more.
 
NervousNovice said:
(off topic)

I think BCA has it that a foul on the break results in cue ball behind the string. Can someone explain the rational behind that please? I prefer ball in hand anywhere more.
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Yes I'm sure most people would prefer it anywhere on the table. However, it does make it too easy to run the rack.
 
if you make one of your balls in...

txplshrk said:
Lets say for aguement sake..........that the guy was trying a combo, and he called the 5, but the 7 fell instead.

Lets say he contacted the 7 first...........which is legal. The 7 fell, and nothing hit a rail.

He looses the turn because he called the 5.

It is not ball in hand though because the 7 falling in the pocket is considered the rail.

The pockets are considered rails.

That is why you can take a straight in shot on something like the 8, and just stop your cue ball. The cue ball doesn't have to hit the rail because the eight fell in the pocket, and pockets are considered rails.

Make sense?
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APA or most formats for that matter, it isn't a foul to begin with ! could you explain your explanation :confused:
 
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