This layout came up in the finals of a local 8-ball tourney between John Maki & Shannon Murphy. The image is a little blurry but the ball in the corner is the 9-ball and it's tied up by the 2 and 3 balls with the 8 ball near the center of the table. The guy with stripes (John Maki) has ball-in-hand and is unable to make a legal hit. Are there any type of stalemate rules for this situation?
8-Ball Stalemate??
- Thread starter FeelDaShot
- Start date
Not really.
He can just hand the incoming player the ball. Maybe move the 8 up in there too and take a foul. I don't see a strategy move for stripes other than stalling...maybe tiring up 8 against the back of the 2.
If I were solids, I'm making the 3-9 combo and getting cueball up table to the right end rail. The 2 blocks the shot on the 8 for stripes.
So what did the players here do?
He can just hand the incoming player the ball. Maybe move the 8 up in there too and take a foul. I don't see a strategy move for stripes other than stalling...maybe tiring up 8 against the back of the 2.
If I were solids, I'm making the 3-9 combo and getting cueball up table to the right end rail. The 2 blocks the shot on the 8 for stripes.
So what did the players here do?
That's an interesting situation. I guess adding the 8 ball to the pile might be an option. Murphy looks to have out moved his opponent. Who won?
Is there no 3 fouls = loss of game?
In APA, IF both players agree they can't make, or won't attempt a legal hit, you re rack...I've been in a similar situation, but the 8 ball was barricaded in the corner similar to the 9 ball in your pic..re'rack.
If I get the cue ball handed to me and I'm solids I'm going to make the combo with draw and hope the 3 follows the 9 into the pocket.
I’ve asked the same when there was a similar situation in an 8/9 ball tournament.
Everyone looked at me like I was insane. There’s never been a 3 foul rule in 8-Ball - never could be such a rule, unthinkable.
I don’t know what I’d do with BIH as stripes. The cushions are considered part of the playing surface, when you’re talking about the cue ball getting up on the cush then back to the table. Maybe there’s some way to start with the CB up there and drop onto the stripe and push it into the facing, hopefully keeping it from falling cuz I don’t think you could split the balls enough to have an opening to the 8 after that. Plus people would probably yell foul for starting on the cushion lol.
An extremely accurate jump shot with draw could solve stripe’s problem possibly. Low percentage for pros and hoes alike.
I’d like to see the action leading up to this scenario. Maybe I can
I was involved in a similar scenario a few years back in a league game. In our case the 8ball was hanging in the corner and tied up. Neither one of us would touch it. After 3 fouls each, it was declared a stalemate and we reracked. We play by BCA rules.
BCA:
21. STALEMATED GAME. If, after 3 consecutive turns at the table by each player, 6 turns total, the referee judges or if no referee, both players agree, that attempting to pocket or move an object ball will result in loss of game, the balls will be reracked with the original breaker of the stalemated game breaking again. The stalemate rule may only be used when there are only two object balls and the 8 ball remaining on the table. PLEASE NOTE, Three consecutive fouls by one player is not a loss of game.
www.billiards.com
Not sure about APA rules...
BCA:
21. STALEMATED GAME. If, after 3 consecutive turns at the table by each player, 6 turns total, the referee judges or if no referee, both players agree, that attempting to pocket or move an object ball will result in loss of game, the balls will be reracked with the original breaker of the stalemated game breaking again. The stalemate rule may only be used when there are only two object balls and the 8 ball remaining on the table. PLEASE NOTE, Three consecutive fouls by one player is not a loss of game.
Official BCA 8 Ball Rules
Standardized World Rules Except when clearly contradicted by these additional rules, the General Rules of Pocket Billiards apply. 1. OBJECT OF THE GAME. Eight Ball is a call shot game played with a cue ball and fifteen object balls, numbered 1 through 15. One player must pocket balls of the...
www.billiards.com
Not sure about APA rules...
had the exact same layout. i just poked the cb, opponent did the same, etc, it was eventually a re-rack.
following the solid in is not necessarily an option. the reverse transferred spin has no time to take off, and that's a huge gamble with the 8-ball free in the open for the other guy. for that same reason it's not in the interest of stripes to push the 8-ball frozen to the cluster.
following the solid in is not necessarily an option. the reverse transferred spin has no time to take off, and that's a huge gamble with the 8-ball free in the open for the other guy. for that same reason it's not in the interest of stripes to push the 8-ball frozen to the cluster.
What did you mean by the above in bold? If by "reverse transferred spin" you are talking about the follow that would be transferred to the solid because of the draw that was put on the cue ball (such as in the shot that was referred to in post #6), which is the way I read it, then that follow on the object ball is on there immediately and doesn't need any "time to take off". Assuming of course that you hit the combo at an appropriate angle that would allow for the solid to follow the stripe in, the only question in a shot such as from post #1 is whether or not you were able to transfer enough spin to the solid to allow it to follow the stripe in, but whatever spin you were able to transfer is on there immediately without any wait.
Now given enough distance to work with before hitting the stripe, the solid would ultimately pick up natural forward roll because of the friction from the cloth (which would certainly be a big benefit for its chances to be able to follow in the stripe). While this certainly wouldn't be "reverse transferred spin", I'm wondering if you aren't realizing that is what happens in those cases and instead believe it is a delayed reaction to the spin transfer between balls and that was your confusion?
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yes, that was poorly worded. i mean it will have no time to get the transferred spin since the nine is right there to sandwich it. or would it?
The BEST I'm able to come up with is as follows. Place the cue ball as if you're going to bank the purple 4 ball cross corner (back to you). Hit it with just enough touch to come off the rail and knock the 3 ball back a bit. You will give up ball in hand. But hopefully, both balls remain close and can't be played anywhere...AND YOUR 9BALL IS STILL IN THE POCKET!! 
As I mentioned, the transferred spin is there immediately so the solid would already have it before it hits the 9 since there is never a delay in the spin you were able to transfer from the cue ball to the solid. It sounds like you may be confusing the full natural forward roll spin that the solid picks up as a result of friction with the cloth if it has enough distance to work with to get to a full natural roll, and are incorrectly seeing this as a delayed reaction to your spin transfer when in fact it is a completely separate thing that has essentially no relation. All of the spin you were able to actually transfer was already on there immediately.
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so, would it? be able to follow the stripe in, that is
It would be influenced by whether the solid is frozen to the 9 or if there is a gap, by the dirtiness of the balls, how hard you hit it and with how much spin and various other things, but yes the shot looks to lie in a way with a high chance of going if hit properly.
Depends on the rules, in standard world 8 ball rules there is a stalemate that can be called if after a certain number of innings "no progress is made to end the game" and the ref (or players) feel that neither can do anything useful to not cause a loss or gain a winning situation. I think maybe 5 innings? Not really sure as to how long the bunting has to go on before it's allowed to end the game.
With bih shoot the 3 into the 9 and 2 making the 9, get the cue ball behind the 3 and 2 for a safety.
the solids have a strong advantage from here with bih.
if I am stripes, I am rolling the 8 near the corner opposite the cluster to avoid the above
the solids have a strong advantage from here with bih.
if I am stripes, I am rolling the 8 near the corner opposite the cluster to avoid the above
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If I'm stripes I'm knocking that 3 ball closer to the 4 (then going to end rail with CB) and a bit up table trying to at least open a path to my ball without leaving my opponent any sort of bank shot.
Or just do a short 6-8" jump right on top of the 11. Of course, I would over jump it, make the 11 and the CB would go rolling on the floor
Or just do a short 6-8" jump right on top of the 11. Of course, I would over jump it, make the 11 and the CB would go rolling on the floor
OK, if you're stripes you're in trouble here. Whatever you play you have to be prepared for solids to combo your 9 in and control the cue ball to leave you safe. This would be devastating.
Tying the 8 ball up on the solids doesn't help. Solids will still be winning here.
The only I option I see that makes this even a little challenging for solids would be to try to hang up the 8 ball. Maybe you can shoot the 8 ball towards the top right corner and make sure to hit it really thick into the rail so it hangs up. Or you could use a soft nudge speed and try to position it in front of the side. I think the corner is better myself. If the 8 ball is hanging, now at least when solids combos your ball in and hooks you there is a reasonable kick shot. Yeah, solids could try to draw the 3 through the 9, but if they miscue, cut it too much, or hit it too high maybe they dog it. At least they have to earn it.
I'd say with good play solids wins here 80% of the time. I think forcing them to shoot the draw combo is your best percentage if we ran this again and again. Anything else is a total dead end. It's hard to give your opponent a winning shot, but it's the best we have here. And sometimes when you force people to earn everything they get with no gifts it helps the overall meta game.
Tying the 8 ball up on the solids doesn't help. Solids will still be winning here.
The only I option I see that makes this even a little challenging for solids would be to try to hang up the 8 ball. Maybe you can shoot the 8 ball towards the top right corner and make sure to hit it really thick into the rail so it hangs up. Or you could use a soft nudge speed and try to position it in front of the side. I think the corner is better myself. If the 8 ball is hanging, now at least when solids combos your ball in and hooks you there is a reasonable kick shot. Yeah, solids could try to draw the 3 through the 9, but if they miscue, cut it too much, or hit it too high maybe they dog it. At least they have to earn it.
I'd say with good play solids wins here 80% of the time. I think forcing them to shoot the draw combo is your best percentage if we ran this again and again. Anything else is a total dead end. It's hard to give your opponent a winning shot, but it's the best we have here. And sometimes when you force people to earn everything they get with no gifts it helps the overall meta game.
Exactly.
This doesn’t meet the scenario for a stalemate at this point, because solids has some very good plays available to them going forward…