8-Ball Strategy: After the Break, Can't go out?

[TheConArtist]

Half Breeds = Stripes
Full Breeds = Solids

I notice alot of players favor stripes here also, ...

 

[Colin Colenso]

Whitewolf's inside joke is aimed at me, Colin. And, it is a reflection of his overall lack of experience outside his backyard, and his typical misunderstanding of every meaningful post.

The basis of his inside joke is when someone had asked what they could expect to see at the national amateur tournaments, which are normally held on 7' bar tables with easy pockets. And the answer is easy... aggressive runout play with very little safety play. The one with the most full-table runouts is the one who is left standing, which is typical of any 8-ball tournament.

Does this mean that every game is a break and run or nothing? Of course not, nor is that close to what I suggested. It is the recognition of when to run and when not to run that separates players. The better players will run more than their lesser peers. The strategy of 8-ball is a life study, and I think I represent that pretty well over the years of "how would you play this 8-ball shot," but of course WW doesn't understand those posts. Because the IPT tour uses equipment that isn't as easy as bar tables with wide pockets, then the runouts will be less.

That being said, if runout strategy is what you're looking for, then it is a strength of the amateur bar player scene. It has to be because the tables are smaller, and in general, the amateur bar players do not execute as well as the professional players. So, they have to rely on runout tactics and patterns more than the average professional. If they have professional execution combined with 8-ball runout strategy, they are deadly. Hence, looking at the Wei table layouts provided by Tanner, as well as the YouTube videos, it was pretty clear from this amateur bar table player how good Manalo and Hohmann's runout tactics were, compared to Archer and O'Sullivan's, which were on the not-so-optimum side.

In the end, the guy who runs out most still wins. The finals didn't have a single safety. Neither did the finals at Orlando. That's a lot of pool finals to not see any safeties. The choice of the first ball is normally the key to a good clearance. Which I believe is your question.

Fred

Thanks for the clarification Fred.

Runout strategy is the main thing I work on, next is general potting and positional accuracy, and breaking.

True there wasn't much safety in the finals. Not much generally in the tourney...at least not obvious safety, but players are often cognizant of not trying to leave easy shots on when they are playing at a difficult shot, or they leave a blocker in place until later in a runout so that if they miss some early shots or fail to kick open a cluster, the table won't be so easy to run for the opponent.

I really wish we had more detailed stats than we do. I'm planning to not take on so many outs when they look tough. I'm not sure what percentage of games this may be, possibly 20%, where I'll just try to leave my opponent a difficult out. I'm pretty sure most will take it on. Just how often that works in my favor we'll have to see. A lot will depend on how hard the table is playing...on a bar box obviously against top players this will happen less often, as just about any shot that is on is makable, and banks, caroms etc are pretty easy. In the IPT there are a lot more missed shots, but the players, perhaps out of habit are not reverting to safety often and I suspect this may be a slight flaw in many of their games.

I guess time and stats will tell

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

It seems like a biggest differentiator is the 8-ball break. The guys at the upper echelon like Manalo and Hohmann have very good breaking ability and appear to break-and-run out at a much higher rate than most players.

That leaves the rest of us mere mortals who don't have a dominant breaking game, to resort to other strategies like playing safeties and whatnot.

Well if you don't break well, you'll just get less first visits to an open table, which is a big disadvantage.

Quite a few players with less than great breaks still had a strong runout game, they just got less chances to make BROs. That's why it would be good to see stats of First Open Visit Runout. So we could better differentiate and analyze the player's skill sets.

Then we might be able to recognize some players who don't make a lot of first visit runouts but maintain a high win percentage...or progress well in tournaments. Watching these player's strategies should provide some insights.

Unfortunately the win/loss% is not a great indicator, as the further a player progresses, the tougher is their competition, so their overall win% for the tournament tends to decline.

Colin

 

[Deadon]

Hi Colin;

Thought I would chime in. Also wanted to thank you for the many excellent explainations of different things about this crazy game we all play. Saying that, perhaps I can add something that the others haven't. Your responses from other Azers are enough to write a great book about 8 ball.

An observation, you tend to be a very critical thinker, in most parts of life thats a good thing, but in pool I think it can create some confusion. Hence your question. Perhaps you should simplify your approach. Start with 2 or 3 basic concepts(strategy) that you are comfortable with and comes easy to your style of play. The basic premise is to run out, or leave your opponent in a position where he is likely to loose if he misses the next shot. See, easy, in concept. Now how do you do it? Second concept might be never leave less than 3 balls on the table, if possible. Play safe, block pockets, yes its still a good tactic in the right spot, leave a long shot where position or safe cannot be had, whatever the rack calls for. You can't come up with a formula/analysis for every circumstance, remember, simplify. Get the idea.

Perhaps, you have a weakness, and not just tactics as in your question. That is, maybe you are missing things on the table,..ie.. patterns, possible breakouts, ways to manipulate the table. You might not realize it, unless you are shown. To that end, practice and studying will help. Straight pool is great for helping understand patterns and moving balls when needed. And don't forget to practice your break.

Just some ideas, from an old 8 baller. Thanks again for all the insight you provide to the forum. Good luck in Reno, if your going, see you there.

Mike

 

[pdcue]

One weakness in my game is choice of shot after a break with open table when the out is too difficult to make.

In English 8-ball, which is the game I played for many years, the options are quite clear (usually try make a ball then block a pocket), but this strategy is much less useful in US 8-ball.

So I was hoping some of you guys could help me out with some strategy options for these situation. Explain your thinking process. Perhaps some wei table examples of how you would handle certain situations.

Colin

Hi Colin,
You've gotten lots of iideas about general 8ball strategy,
but my understanding is you are asking specifically, what
to do IF you elect not to try to run out.

So, with that in mind,
A good general rule is:

if you can't run out - think like a one pocket player
that is, try to increase your chances of winning
and decrease your opponent's

idealy you could determine which group will be the easier
out and make one ball from that group. then play the nastiest
safety/trap shot you can execute

I prefer one ball because,
the more of your balls you make, the eaiser it will be for the other guy
to run out.

any tieups, pocket blocks, cueball freezes, etc are all the better

Dale

 

[whitewolf]

Whitewolf's inside joke is aimed at me, Colin. And, it is a reflection of his overall lack of experience outside his backyard, and his typical misunderstanding of every meaningful post.

The basis of his inside joke is when someone had asked what they could expect to see at the national amateur tournaments, which are normally held on 7' bar tables with easy pockets. And the answer is easy... aggressive runout play with very little safety play. The one with the most full-table runouts is the one who is left standing, which is typical of any 8-ball tournament.

Does this mean that every game is a break and run or nothing? Of course not, nor is that close to what I suggested. It is the recognition of when to run and when not to run that separates players. The better players will run more than their lesser peers. The strategy of 8-ball is a life study, and I think I represent that pretty well over the years of "how would you play this 8-ball shot," but of course WW doesn't understand those posts. Because the IPT tour uses equipment that isn't as easy as bar tables with wide pockets, then the runouts will be less.

That being said, if runout strategy is what you're looking for, then it is a strength of the amateur bar player scene. It has to be because the tables are smaller, and in general, the amateur bar players do not execute as well as the professional players. So, they have to rely on runout tactics and patterns more than the average professional. If they have professional execution combined with 8-ball runout strategy, they are deadly. Hence, looking at the Wei table layouts provided by Tanner, as well as the YouTube videos, it was pretty clear from this amateur bar table player how good Manalo and Hohmann's runout tactics were, compared to Archer and O'Sullivan's, which were on the not-so-optimum side.

In the end, the guy who runs out most still wins. The finals didn't have a single safety. Neither did the finals at Orlando. That's a lot of pool finals to not see any safeties. The choice of the first ball is normally the key to a good clearance. Which I believe is your question.

Fred

Colin, my inside joke was directed to the advice Fred gave to Preacherman, an SL4, which was to runout.

Need I say more? Cornerman has macho ideas about how to play 8 ball

Beware Colin.

 

[Cornerman]

Whitewolf's inside joke is aimed at me, Colin. And, it is a reflection of his overall lack of experience outside his backyard, and his typical misunderstanding of every meaningful post.

The basis of his inside joke is when someone had asked what they could expect to see at the national amateur tournaments, which are normally held on 7' bar tables with easy pockets. And the answer is easy... aggressive runout play with very little safety play. The one with the most full-table runouts is the one who is left standing, which is typical of any 8-ball tournament.

Colin, my inside joke was directed to the advice Fred gave to Preacherman, an SL4, which was to runout.

Need I say more? Cornerman has macho ideas about how to play 8 ball

Beware Colin.

Need I say more, indeed. This is from a guy who's a Fast Larry fan, who carries the same "I can't understand posts" club membership. Go figure.

Fred

 

[whitewolf]

Need I say more, indeed. The message of the day is R.I.F. After repeated quoting, you still misrepresent me??? You're a liar in the first degree, and a damned idiot to boot.

Mr. Wilson, ban me if you must, but this boob shouldn't be able to continue this bull$hit.

Fred

I am not going to waste my time looking up the thread where you advised Preacherman. I can't even remember what forum it was on. But you did indeed say this to him. Are you denying that?!!!!!!!!!

Cheers Fred. No hard feelings.

 

[Cornerman]

I am not going to waste my time looking up the thread where you advised Preacherman. I can't even remember what forum it was on. But you did indeed say this to him. Are you denying that?!!!!!!!!!

Cheers Fred. No hard feelings.

Every one of my posts has a distinct and direct answer. THere is no gray area and reading between the lines. If I told Preacherman to run out, it would have been a specific layout, or specific situation (like 8-ball bar tables). I know damned well someone asked "what should I expect to see at the nationals." You didn't agree with me because you're an experienced wannabe.

You can dig up anything you want. You misunderstood everything I"ve said in the past, and you continue now. You just quoted a length post of mine. Did your read it??? I think not.

I've done it for you: http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccbo...d=allposts&Main=205073&Search=true#Post205121

and

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccbo...&Number=76357&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Let me give you a hint, you need to actually read the post, understand the question, and understand that everybody is giving all types of advice. A lot of people chimed in on these posts. Read.

And yes, there are hard feelings. Stop responding to my posts, since you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. You're an imbecile who knows very little about this game.

Fred

 

[whitewolf]

Every one of my posts has a distinct and direct answer. THere is no gray area and reading between the lines. If I told Preacherman to run out, it would have been a specific layout. I know damned well someone asked "what should I expect to see at the nationals." You didn't agree with me because you're an experienced wannabe.

You can dig up anything you want. You misunderstood everything I"ve said in the past, and you continue now. You just quoted a length post of mine. Did your read it??? I think not.

And yes, there are hard feelings. Stop responding to my posts, since you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. You're an imbecile who knows very little about this game.

Fred

This is what you said to Preacherman dip#$%%^.

Quote preacherman:

I am going to be playing 8-ball and though I have some common sense ideas for strategies. I would like your (CCBers) input on 8-ball strategies and also 8-ball strategy on bar table.

Break 'em hard, and run 'em out.

Fred

You cannot create experience. You must undergo it.

So you see Mr. Wilson, I am not a liar. Please tell Fred to quit harassing me :

 

[Cornerman]

So you see Mr. Wilson, I am not a liar. Please tell Fred to quit harassing me :

You ARE a liar. You misunderstand what I write because you don't understand the questions and answers, and you repeatedly misrepresent what I said. When someone clarifies what you misunderstood, and you still continue to misrprepresent, that makes you a liar. Or an idiot. You pick.

Will you ever even attempt to actually read the posts?

Fred

 

[Colin Colenso]

Hi Colin,
You've gotten lots of iideas about general 8ball strategy,
but my understanding is you are asking specifically, what
to do IF you elect not to try to run out.

So, with that in mind,
A good general rule is:

if you can't run out - think like a one pocket player
that is, try to increase your chances of winning
and decrease your opponent's

idealy you could determine which group will be the easier
out and make one ball from that group. then play the nastiest
safety/trap shot you can execute

I prefer one ball because,
the more of your balls you make, the eaiser it will be for the other guy
to run out.

any tieups, pocket blocks, cueball freezes, etc are all the better

Dale

Hi Dale,
Good post!

This is pretty much how I think when I have a good pot option on either set but think neither of them are good chances of an out, but usually when I have the 2 options, one of the sets will represent a decent out chance.

The times I most often looking for a safety play is when my only good percentage pot option is on a set that presents a difficult out, and sometimes I simply do not have a good percentage pot on any ball.

If I were to construct a flow chart, I'd probably being with 3 variables. Those being 1. I can make a ball from each set. 2. I can make a ball of only one set. 3. I can't make a ball of either set.

And from these 3 starting points, I'd move on to the other conditions.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Hi Colin;

Thought I would chime in. Also wanted to thank you for the many excellent explainations of different things about this crazy game we all play. Saying that, perhaps I can add something that the others haven't. Your responses from other Azers are enough to write a great book about 8 ball.

An observation, you tend to be a very critical thinker, in most parts of life thats a good thing, but in pool I think it can create some confusion. Hence your question. Perhaps you should simplify your approach. Start with 2 or 3 basic concepts(strategy) that you are comfortable with and comes easy to your style of play. The basic premise is to run out, or leave your opponent in a position where he is likely to loose if he misses the next shot. See, easy, in concept. Now how do you do it? Second concept might be never leave less than 3 balls on the table, if possible. Play safe, block pockets, yes its still a good tactic in the right spot, leave a long shot where position or safe cannot be had, whatever the rack calls for. You can't come up with a formula/analysis for every circumstance, remember, simplify. Get the idea.

Perhaps, you have a weakness, and not just tactics as in your question. That is, maybe you are missing things on the table,..ie.. patterns, possible breakouts, ways to manipulate the table. You might not realize it, unless you are shown. To that end, practice and studying will help. Straight pool is great for helping understand patterns and moving balls when needed. And don't forget to practice your break.

Just some ideas, from an old 8 baller. Thanks again for all the insight you provide to the forum. Good luck in Reno, if your going, see you there.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I wrote a pretty long reply to your post, but after clicking it disappeared into the internet vaccuum...grrr

I'll summarize quickly....

I very much agree with the concept idea you mention above. That was one of my purposes in starting this thread. Not just to collect a list of example shots, but to discover overall concepts that aid analysis.

A very good example is your concept to The basic premise is to run out, or leave your opponent in a position where he is likely to loose if he misses the next shot.

Hope you'll introduce yourself in Reno,
Colin