8-ball vs 9-ball For TV

[lewdo26]

Finally Graduates from 8 ball leagues. People graduate to 9 ball because they are told by more seasoned players that it is the pro game and the one that you have to play if you are serious and/or it is also shown on tv. I see this as being more of peer pressure than anything. If 8 ball is so easy why are there not more amateurs running 8-10 racks? Where I live most people play 9 ball and nothing else. They feel all of the other games are far too easy. But lets keep in mind, by in large most of these guys can count their run outs on one hand.

Exactly, Cameron! I've been making this argument on this forum for a while.

I also thought Capelle's arguments were pretty lame. The only one that deserves a response as far as I'm concerned, is what he said about recreational 8 ball players not *knowing* 8 ball.

In fact, properly played 8 ball is not familiar to most players period; recreational or not. I wonder how the amateur would react when they realize that the 8 ball they see on TV isn't the 8 ball they know...

Further, Capelle just went right past Europe's 8 ball tradition. Which, like straight pool, is played more often by pros over there than here in the US.

 

[jay helfert]

9-Ball vs. 8-Ball

Both are quite interesting games with their own subtleties. In 9-Ball you must stay in line and keep the proper angle. You must have the ability to make all kinds of shots, such as banks, difficult cuts, combos, billiards etc.
There is a great deal of pressure playing 9-Ball because as you get closer to winning, you also get closer to losing. Better to miss the One than the Eight.
Now what about 8-Ball. It's kind of fallen into disfavor with the pros for many years, being primarily a game for amateurs. There have been a few major 8-Ball championships over the years, but not many. 9-Ball has been king for a long time on the tournament circuit. Maybe it's time to show a new look for pro pool.
What makes 8-Ball interesting for me is that there are choices a player must make. it is not quite so cut and dried as 9-Ball. The player has options on how to attempt a run-out or to play a safe. Yes, a player may have options in 9-Ball, but not as many or as often. Simply put, there are more moves a player can make in 8-Ball.
After watching matches at the Derby City Qualifier and at Hard Times, I began to notice that many great 9-Ballers were a little tentative playing 8-Ball. They were uncertain of the proper patterns or strategy. And were quite vocal in stating as much. This is a new challenge for them and it will be interesting to see who the best players are.
There is more thinking that goes into a game of 8-Ball and I like that. Some games are simple but many are not. Both are good games to play and the best players will ultimately win in the end. My final observation is to watch out for the filipinos and bet all you can on Orcollo over whoever.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Essentially, the difference is this: 9 ball appears easy because if you make a mistake, your opponent can run out. But 8 ball is much easier because if you make a mistake, you can just pick another ball to shoot at, ie~ ITS HARDER TO MAKE A MISTAKE!!!

This isn't entirely true. Mistakes just aren't punished right away. If I get out of line on the third ball in my run it may make it impossible or very difficult to get to my key ball, eight ball or trouble ball later in the rack. If I play safe I may be able to maintain control, however if I continue the run I may find myself having to play safe but with nowhere to hide.

The only saving grace is that your opponent still has the rest of his balls to run out, but they would be relatively open at this point.

 

[jsp]

Both are quite interesting games with their own subtleties. In 9-Ball you must stay in line and keep the proper angle. You must have the ability to make all kinds of shots, such as banks, difficult cuts, combos, billiards etc.
There is a great deal of pressure playing 9-Ball because as you get closer to winning, you also get closer to losing. Better to miss the One than the Eight.
Now what about 8-Ball. It's kind of fallen into disfavor with the pros for many years, being primarily a game for amateurs. There have been a few major 8-Ball championships over the years, but not many. 9-Ball has been king for a long time on the tournament circuit. Maybe it's time to show a new look for pro pool.
What makes 8-Ball interesting for me is that there are choices a player must make. it is not quite so cut and dried as 9-Ball. The player has options on how to attempt a run-out or to play a safe. Yes, a player may have options in 9-Ball, but not as many or as often. Simply put, there are more moves a player can make in 8-Ball.
After watching matches at the Derby City Qualifier and at Hard Times, I began to notice that many great 9-Ballers were a little tentative playing 8-Ball. They were uncertain of the proper patterns or strategy. And were quite vocal in stating as much. This is a new challenge for them and it will be interesting to see who the best players are.
There is more thinking that goes into a game of 8-Ball and I like that. Some games are simple but many are not. Both are good games to play and the best players will ultimately win in the end. My final observation is to watch out for the filipinos and bet all you can on Orcollo over whoever.

Great post Jay! I completely agree with all you said...especially the last statement. Can't wait to watch the Efren versus Orcollo final match in the North American Open.

 

[jsp]

Someone please explain to me how 8 ball is harder because I have yet to see how this is. I have watched a lot of top level pros play 8 ball and, most of the times, if they make a ball on the break, they are out. There is no challenge for them because, if they manage to get bad position, they can simply hit a diffeent ball! In 9 ball, if you get out of line, you had better find a way to correct or reconcile your mistake otherwise your mistake could cost you the game.


Essentially, the difference is this: 9 ball appears easy because if you make a mistake, your opponent can run out. But 8 ball is much easier because if you make a mistake, you can just pick another ball to shoot at, ie~ ITS HARDER TO MAKE A MISTAKE!!!

Hey pharaoh, take a look at this thread that was started a couple months back...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=21735

The majority of the thread is a good debate of what game is a truer test of a player's skill, 8ball or 9ball. If you want to continue the debate, you may want to resurrect it. I'm game for more debate.

 

[cfrandy]

I've appeared on TV for cooking, but I guess I'll never be on TV for pool. I don't play 9-ball. The aggressive nature of 8-ball and the strategizing is what thrills me!

Someone asked why 8-ball is harder; the fact that there are more shot opportunities means you MUST play aggressively. You're always one shot/miss from losing...or winning!

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I've appeared on TV for cooking, but I guess I'll never be on TV for pool. I don't play 9-ball. The aggressive nature of 8-ball and the strategizing is what thrills me!

Someone asked why 8-ball is harder; the fact that there are more shot opportunities means you MUST play aggressively. You're always one shot/miss from losing...or winning!

There is alot of defense in 8-ball. Sometimes even if you smash the rack the balls just don't lay well and going for a runout is suicidal.

 

[42NateBaller]

I prefer playing 8-ball, because you have to figure out your problems and patterns. Watching it is a little more difficult, because I don't always understand the choices others make. 9-ball is much more straight forward when it comes to strategy and shot making.

 

[Billy_Bob]

...I also thought Capelle's arguments were pretty lame. The only one that deserves a response as far as I'm concerned, is what he said about recreational 8 ball players not *knowing* 8 ball.

In fact, properly played 8 ball is not familiar to most players period; recreational or not. I wonder how the amateur would react when they realize that the 8 ball they see on TV isn't the 8 ball they know...

8-ball is a game which can appear to be one thing at first glance. Then there are various stages of learning about the game. It has a lot of "depth" in that there are games within the game.

And I think this would be a thing which could keep TV viewers captivated. If you watch a show on TV, you might notice that there is a "story 1", "story 2", and sometimes "story 3". There are multiple stories going on at the same time. The main story may be about a detective who solves a case. The second story may be about the detective's relationship with his wife. And the third story may be about the detective's problematic car. It has "depth".

And 8-ball also has several stories going on at the same time. Story 1 - how many balls has each player pocketed. Story 2 - how well is each player able to leave the cue ball in a good position for their next shot. Story 3 - how well is each player able to keep control of the table - tie up the 8-ball or whatever. It has "depth".

Following is an excerpt from a web page on screen writing...
(Link to page below; this is from about 1/6th way down page under section: Q. What is a show's "template"?)

"Does the show have multiple story lines? How much weight does it give each? An hour drama template might say: each episode has three story lines. The A story typically has 12 beats. The B story typically has 8. The C story has 4. Note that because this is hour drama, the numbers are evenly divisible by four. The A story has 3 beats per act, the B story 2, the C story 1. A half hour comedy template, say Friends, might give the A story 2 to three beats per act, that is 6 to 9 beats; the B story one to two beats, and the C story one beat."

Above from...
http://www.craftyscreenwriting.com/TVFAQ.html

 

[chefjeff]

8-ball is a game which can appear to be one thing at first glance. Then there are various stages of learning about the game. It has a lot of "depth" in that there are games within the game.

And I think this would be a thing which could keep TV viewers captivated. If you watch a show on TV, you might notice that there is a "story 1", "story 2", and sometimes "story 3". There are multiple stories going on at the same time. The main story may be about a detective who solves a case. The second story may be about the detective's relationship with his wife. And the third story may be about the detective's problematic car. It has "depth".

And 8-ball also has several stories going on at the same time. Story 1 - how many balls has each player pocketed. Story 2 - how well is each player able to leave the cue ball in a good position for their next shot. Story 3 - how well is each player able to keep control of the table - tie up the 8-ball or whatever. It has "depth".

Following is an excerpt from a web page on screen writing...
(Link to page below; this is from about 1/6th way down page under section: Q. What is a show's "template"?)

"Does the show have multiple story lines? How much weight does it give each? An hour drama template might say: each episode has three story lines. The A story typically has 12 beats. The B story typically has 8. The C story has 4. Note that because this is hour drama, the numbers are evenly divisible by four. The A story has 3 beats per act, the B story 2, the C story 1. A half hour comedy template, say Friends, might give the A story 2 to three beats per act, that is 6 to 9 beats; the B story one to two beats, and the C story one beat."

Above from...
http://www.craftyscreenwriting.com/TVFAQ.html

Good analogy, BB. 8-ball is a story being told. I like that.

A poster, above, had a quote in his post, "...pool is freedom," or something like that. 8-ball is freedom and freedom requires the responsibility to think. 9-ball players are a slave to the numbers; 8-ball players have freedom to choose. I like that.

Go IPT!

Jeff Livingston

 

[mworkman]

Is there any information on the runout % of the bar table championship? It would be interesting to know if it is higher or lower then on the 9 footers.

 

[pharaoh68]

Good analogy, BB. 8-ball is a story being told. I like that.

A poster, above, had a quote in his post, "...pool is freedom," or something like that. 8-ball is freedom and freedom requires the responsibility to think. 9-ball players are a slave to the numbers; 8-ball players have freedom to choose. I like that.

Go IPT!

Jeff Livingston

By saying that 8 ball players have the freedom to choose, you are merely illustrating my earlier point that 8 ball is indeed an easier game. You are not forced to follow one specific path. The difference is simple:

9 ball- There is a beginning and an end. The beginning comes from the moment the first ball is dropped. The end comes only when the 9 ball is pocketed. All shots in between are (for the most part) pre-determined. You must hit balls in sequential order. The choice as to how you wish to do so does remain up to you. But that is your only choice!

8 ball- Like 9 ball, there is a clearcut beginning and end. The beginning comes from the moment the first ball is pocketed and the end can come either of two ways! A player successfully clears the table of all his/her balls PLUS the 8 ball, or the 8 ball is pocketed early resulting in a loss of game. Now, in 8 ball, there is no set path. Every shot presents a choice. You can shoot this ball or that one AND depending on which ball you choose to shoot, you have a number of options.

The way I see it, 8 ball presents more options and thus, the game is fundamentally easier.

 

[jsp]

By saying that 8 ball players have the freedom to choose, you are merely illustrating my earlier point that 8 ball is indeed an easier game. You are not forced to follow one specific path. The difference is simple:

9 ball- There is a beginning and an end. The beginning comes from the moment the first ball is dropped. The end comes only when the 9 ball is pocketed. All shots in between are (for the most part) pre-determined. You must hit balls in sequential order. The choice as to how you wish to do so does remain up to you. But that is your only choice!

8 ball- Like 9 ball, there is a clearcut beginning and end. The beginning comes from the moment the first ball is pocketed and the end can come either of two ways! A player successfully clears the table of all his/her balls PLUS the 8 ball, or the 8 ball is pocketed early resulting in a loss of game. Now, in 8 ball, there is no set path. Every shot presents a choice. You can shoot this ball or that one AND depending on which ball you choose to shoot, you have a number of options.

The way I see it, 8 ball presents more options and thus, the game is fundamentally easier.

Your argument that 8ball is an easier game just because you have more options is naive. You have even more options in one-pocket and straight pool (you can shoot all 15 balls!), does that make these games much easier than 8ball and 9ball? Please read the other thread, and read ALL the arguments presented. If you want to continue on with the debate, do so on that thread, because we are getting away from the topic of this one.

EDIT: Okay, one-pocket is a bad example, because you do have 5 less pockets to shoot at.

 

[pharaoh68]

Your argument that 8ball is an easier game just because you have more options is naive. You have even more options in one-pocket and straight pool (you can shoot all 15 balls!), does that make these games are much easier than 8ball and 9ball? Please read the other thread, and read ALL the arguments presented. If you want to continue on with the debate, do so on that thread, because we are getting away from the topic of this one.

First, in dealing with games like bank pool, one pocket, and straight pool, there are added factors here making these games much more difficult. For example, when playing one pocket, playing safe is much more prevalent and, when playing safe in any game, you have to be even more precise than when pocketing a ball. Factors like this make these games far more difficult so, my general argument is easier. You are dealing with games that have a basic strategy. Just make the balls anywhere you want. By limiting when you do it or calling your shots, etc. you add another factor or series of factors that add to the difficulty of the game. Thus, 8 ball and 9 ball are easier than straight pool or one pocket.

Second, this is a quote directly from the opening post in this thread:

"With the IPT looming on the horizon I think it's safe to say that most pool players are wondering if pool can really blow up like poker did. There is alot of debate about whether the IPT mainly being 8-ball (or solely), if it will appeal to the masses, and whether it does or not will of course be a massive impact on how successful the tour is. I came across this article by Phil Capelle, and he compares the two games, and how they will appeal to the masses. He also did a poll on 8-ball vs 9-ball with several hundred voters, and 9 ball won decisively. The points he brought up in this article are brilliant, and I think that everyone, including Mr. Andrews and Trudeau should take all of what Capelle said into consideration.

Here is the link to the article, (I don't want to copy and paste the whole thing): http://www.billiardspress.com/perspective.html

This does not belong in the IPT section of this forum IMO, because it is about 8-ball and 9-ball and general, so please don't move this thread."

As you can see, this post does refers to the appeal these games have to the masses. I am part of "the masses" and I offered my opinion on how they appeal to me. I also offered reasons as to why I feel the way I do. Thus, my points here are very valid and quite ON topic. You may not agree. That is fine. You don't have to agree with me. But if you are going to make an argument, make a good one. Thus far, you have said nothing here that is factual.

 

[jsp]

But if you are going to make an argument, make a good one. Thus far, you have said nothing here that is factual.

I've told you to read the other thread two times already. I've made all my arguments there, and I'm not going to retype them all or cut and paste them in this thread. Again, please take the time to read that thread if you want to hear my arguments as to why I believe 8ball is a "better test of a player's overall skill" than 9ball.

 

[supergreenman]

Your argument that 8ball is an easier game just because you have more options is naive. You have even more options in one-pocket and straight pool (you can shoot all 15 balls!), does that make these games much easier than 8ball and 9ball? Please read the other thread, and read ALL the arguments presented. If you want to continue on with the debate, do so on that thread, because we are getting away from the topic of this one.

EDIT: Okay, one-pocket is a bad example, because you do have 5 less pockets to shoot at.

Ok pharaoh, because you dismiss JSP off hand and refuse to look up the old thread on this topic I will list a few reasons why 8-ball is harder than 9-ball.

#1 you have more options, which is your reason for it being easier, but in fact it can be quite the opposite. Although 1or 2 of your opptions might allow you to run out, if you choose the wrong ball to lead with you'll get out of position and/or mess up your pattern and end up screwed behind one of your opponents 7 balls. A fact which you neglected to even consider. It's not like you can just step to the table and shoot down 8 balls and win.

#2 when you play safe on your opponent he has up to 7 balls to hit with any number of combinations to escape your safe.

#3 There is the potential for more clusters and bad leaves. There's more balls, it's only common sense.

 

[CaptainJR]

By saying that 8 ball players have the freedom to choose, you are merely illustrating my earlier point that 8 ball is indeed an easier game. You are not forced to follow one specific path. The difference is simple:

9 ball- There is a beginning and an end. The beginning comes from the moment the first ball is dropped. The end comes only when the 9 ball is pocketed. All shots in between are (for the most part) pre-determined. You must hit balls in sequential order. The choice as to how you wish to do so does remain up to you. But that is your only choice!

8 ball- Like 9 ball, there is a clearcut beginning and end. The beginning comes from the moment the first ball is pocketed and the end can come either of two ways! A player successfully clears the table of all his/her balls PLUS the 8 ball, or the 8 ball is pocketed early resulting in a loss of game. Now, in 8 ball, there is no set path. Every shot presents a choice. You can shoot this ball or that one AND depending on which ball you choose to shoot, you have a number of options.

The way I see it, 8 ball presents more options and thus, the game is fundamentally easier.

If it were that cut and dry I'd probably agree with you. It's not. 9 ball isn't always that easy and neither is 8 ball. Let try to remember what the title of the thread asks. The thread isn't about which is easier, it is about which would be better for TV. Which game is more interesting? Not even close, 8 ball is out of 9 balls league as far as how interesting it is. Look at a 9 ball layout and you can see what is going to happen unless someone goofs it up. Then you can easily see what the incoming player is going to do. 8 ball on the other hand. After the break you can stand there and talk for an hour talking about half a dozen different approaches to clearing that rake. If you say the 9 ball is more difficult than 8 ball they you would say 9 ball is more difficult that 14.1 straight pool. It just isn't. Different yes. But which is more interesting, no doubt 8 ball is much more interesting to watch.

 

[pharaoh68]

Ok pharaoh, because you dismiss JSP off hand and refuse to look up the old thread on this topic I will list a few reasons why 8-ball is harder than 9-ball.

#1 you have more options, which is your reason for it being easier, but in fact it can be quite the opposite. Although 1or 2 of your opptions might allow you to run out, if you choose the wrong ball to lead with you'll get out of position and/or mess up your pattern and end up screwed behind one of your opponents 7 balls. A fact which you neglected to even consider. It's not like you can just step to the table and shoot down 8 balls and win.

#2 when you play safe on your opponent he has up to 7 balls to hit with any number of combinations to escape your safe.

#3 There is the potential for more clusters and bad leaves. There's more balls, it's only common sense.

Thank you for posting those points. And yes. I can go back and post on another thread but there is no need. We were asked for our take on the appeal of 8 ball vs. 9 ball in a televised format. My take is that 8 ball is easier and, as a result, less appealing. That sparked a debate. I did not turn this thread into the 8 ball/9ball debate. Someone else did when they questioned my opinion. I merely gave my opinion which, if you recall, was what we were asked to do in the first place.

I'll addres each of your/JPS's points above one by one.

The first point is nullified by your own reasoning. You state that if you have more options, one wrong move can ruin your entire pattern. What you fail to recognize is that the worng move does little more than create a new series of options and new patterns for you to choose from. And, if you wish, you can intertwine parts of number 2 here as well. Suppose your bad roll leaves you hooked. You now have up to 7 balls to kick at to make a hit.

The second point is also very one-sided. Sure you leave your opponent up to 7 balls to make a hit when you safe him. But you leave him up to 8 balls to foul on!!!!

As for the third point, there's more clusters and bad leaves?!? Yes, but when you have to worry less about precision and accuracy (because there is no set ball to have to shoot next), your breakouts can be more aggressive. Once the pack is broken up, you have (yet again) more choices!

 

[pharaoh68]

If it were that cut and dry I'd probably agree with you. It's not. 9 ball isn't always that easy and neither is 8 ball. Let try to remember what the title of the thread asks. The thread isn't about which is easier, it is about which would be better for TV. Which game is more interesting? Not even close, 8 ball is out of 9 balls league as far as how interesting it is. Look at a 9 ball layout and you can see what is going to happen unless someone goofs it up. Then you can easily see what the incoming player is going to do. 8 ball on the other hand. After the break you can stand there and talk for an hour talking about half a dozen different approaches to clearing that rake. If you say the 9 ball is more difficult than 8 ball they you would say 9 ball is more difficult that 14.1 straight pool. It just isn't. Different yes. But which is more interesting, no doubt 8 ball is much more interesting to watch.

Ok. If you are basing the argument on interest as it relates to seeing a player "connect the dots" so to speak and get out of each rack, 8 ball can be just as easy as 9 ball. Remember, we are talking about professional players here. These guys can get out of an 8 ball rack just as easily as they can a 9 ball rack. But if the thread is pertaining to general interest, I find 8 ball to be less interesting. Why? Well, I believe I already stated my reason for that and thus, caused a large debate.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I totally agree. Also, 8-ball gives the "expert commentator(s)" (whatever pro(s) or former pro(s) they put in the booth) something to SAY.

Allen Hopkins was/is a GREAT 9-ball player, but he has nothing to talk about when commentating 9-ball on ESPN. "I think he'll use low left english to come back to the middle of the table for the 5 ball" is about all he can say, and if you're not a pool player, you don't know and likely don't care why or how such english is used.

8-ball commentary, on the other hand, could really give an interesting insight into what pro players are thinking when they're at the table. If he could say "a lot of beginner-level players would shoot the two and then shoot the 4-6 combo, but a smarter play is to play for the 4-6 first, since it's hard to use the 4 in a combo and guarantee that you'll have a shot on it for the next shot. So he'll shoot the 4-6 and have the 2 right there to shoot, and get position for the 4 after that," that's something interesting that a lot of casual players wouldn't have thought about, and something that shows how much knowledge and expertise top-level players have, beyond the clearly visible shot-making ability.

People watching football love to analyze and criticize the play-calling. Let the same audience start to learn to analyze and criticize the shot selections, and you've created a real way for a non-player or casual player to get interested in the game. Hell, terrible pool players already stand next to bar tables yapping about what the shooter should do next in an 8-ball game. It's got established appeal!

-Andrew

Andrew,
I think you have a good point.

At 8 ball tournies, there's usually a buzz of strategical discussions amongst the crowd regarding choice of shot, order of play, how the player will deal with a cluster or a tricky ball.

I don't think this happens so much in 9-ball. Usually, once a player gets an open shot, most are ready to pencil in a frame win.

For an earlier poster that said 8-ball outs were too easy, I think the KOH event disproved that, with the top 8 players there averaging only around 30% break and runs.

In 9-ball, once a player gets ON, he's around 90% of cleaning up at top level. That percentage falls closer to 70% in 8-ball, where potting your early balls does little to make the finish any easier.

One idea of 9-ball is that it is supposed to build tension, but at the top level this doesn't happen much. Once on the last 4 or 5 balls, a win is a near certainty. In 8-ball, the tension often builds as a player gets closer to the finish.

In 9-ball, you can lose position on the 7 or 8 ball and likely maintain advantage through a good safety. In 8-ball, lose position with only a couple of your balls on the table and you're in deep trouble.

Not to mention, that probably 10 times the number of players worldwide are more familiar with 8-ball than they are with 9-ball.