8 ball What do you do???

The actual thoughts behind this shot.

To tie up the eight ball or any of his balls and giving up ball in hand was not an option because the opponent is a very good player and I felt that what I had then was better than I would expect to have in the future.

I believe the one ball was just a little further off the rail than in the diagram making the two rail kick like Neil suggested too difficult. The one railer would be pointless because I would have be extremely lucky just to even have chance at the eight.

The one rail attempt would leave him the cue ball in a position with limitless options. In our time out we felt there was a chance to win the game along with the opportunity of leaving the cue ball up table with more distance from his balls if the one did not go in. More distance for him would make even the safeties more difficult to execute.This option also gets my ball away from his and may allow a better opportunity if he chooses to play safe.

It seems that Neil was more in tune to my way of reasoning on this. After I won that match FrankinCali stepped up and won the next match with good shooting, patience and safety play.

This was the finals in our in house Masters league.
 
Good question

Predator5K4 said:
How about a 3-rail kick uptable to make the one? With the two railer off the short rail, the cue ball is going toward the long rail that the 8 is on and there is a lot of traffic. With the 3-railer, the cue ball will glance off toward the other side pocket, take a lot of speed off and if you make the 1, you have a very makeable shot on the 8. Or, maybe a masse? Can't wait to see what he did!
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I would agree with this choice.
I see 7 stripes on the table still, I'm guessing the shooter left this as his/her shape? There is a "HUGE" area for shape up table, what happened?
Anyway, with only one ball you better kick it in cause you may never get another shot anyway. If you are playing a good player at best you will get another shot but it will be a kick also.
 
depends on the table size. barbox or 8 footer id go 1 rail uptable and kick the 1 ball down by the 9 ball. on a 9 footer go 3 rails soft and try and stick the 1 in the pack.

thats just me though.
 
I would have kicked long rail in an attempt to make my last ball in the lower left pocket and have enough pace to hopefully get the CB up to the top for a shot on the 8

Bttom line...If you are in this position against a decent player you are usually at very long odds of winning the game no matter what you do.

Your are either going to have to come with a lucky shot, or hope your opponent makes 1 very big mistake or even multiple mistakes for you to win.
 
I think tying up the 8-ball is the shot if you feel good about it. I would feel good about the over-cut of the 14-ball to tie up the 8-ball on most tables.

Second-best is hoping to hit the 1-ball and getting lucky on the leave by either pocketing the 1-ball or leaving the 1-ball near a hole.

An intentional foul is probably the worst option if you can't tie up the 8-ball because your opponent can easily leave you in a worse position.

If your opponent is decent, you've probably already lost this game. By making him break out the 8-ball you might possibly screw up his run and limit his safety options.
 
dabarbr said:
The actual thoughts behind this shot.

To tie up the eight ball or any of his balls and giving up ball in hand was not an option because the opponent is a very good player and I felt that what I had then was better than I would expect to have in the future.

I believe the one ball was just a little further off the rail than in the diagram making the two rail kick like Neil suggested too difficult. The one railer would be pointless because I would have be extremely lucky just to even have chance at the eight.

The one rail attempt would leave him the cue ball in a position with limitless options. In our time out we felt there was a chance to win the game along with the opportunity of leaving the cue ball up table with more distance from his balls if the one did not go in. More distance for him would make even the safeties more difficult to execute.This option also gets my ball away from his and may allow a better opportunity if he chooses to play safe.

It seems that Neil was more in tune to my way of reasoning on this. After I won that match FrankinCali stepped up and won the next match with good shooting, patience and safety play.

This was the finals in our in house Masters league.
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I thought it was a good idea and excellent shot. I couldn't remember the layout of the balls exactly.

I don't know how much good shooting went on in mine but I know there was patience. In the first game alone I think I shot 6-8 defensive shots before missing the first ball:eek: I shot at.
I also knew that playing this way would frustrate Henry who likes to get into ball making shootouts. I think it worked due to his reaction after hooking him and not taking the flyer on the three. I didnt expect him to yell about it but LOL.

Nice match especially for out team :p :p
 
wow those are some complicated shots..

whats wrong with the simple 1 rail kick? then cutting the 8 ball to the corner?
 
Neil said:
I tried posting this before Frank's answer, but it didn't 'take'. First off, anything I am about to say is meant with no disrespect, and not as a slam.

First, good is not subjective. Either someone is good, or they aren't. Just because they are a good shotmaker, doesn't make them a good 8 ball player.

I usually advocate playing the table, and not your opponent. But, sometimes, you have to play your opponent. You seem to be thinking like a 'B' player. Not an 'A' player. Frank mentioned that he was playing a "very good player". So, that has to be taken into consideration.

Playing a 'B' player, I could probably tie up some balls and might get away with it. Playing an 'A' player, tieing up balls only prolongs the inevitable-my loss. The balls are all close enough that tying them up accomplishes nothing. They are easily broken out during the run. Or, he can easily break them out and hook me again.

The ONLY option, in this case, is to try and make the one and run out. Is it a 'hail mary 'shot? Of course it is. But, that is the ONLY option you realistically have of winning against an 'A' player. My preference was two rails. Many would go for it the way Frank's opponent did. Which way you go for it depends on where you feel the most comfortable.

In this particular scenario, an 'A' player will tie you up all day long, NEVER giving you an open shot at the one. You now have an option to make it and win. You HAVE to take the chance when you get it. You aren't likely to get another.
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An excellent description of your thinking on this and I find myself agreeing ...except...everyone screws up..even masters players. I often like giving my opponent lots of rope in these situations. IOW make him earn it by leaving as tough a runnout as possible and maybe...just maybe..he leaves me an opening. If not at least I made him shoot to win and didn't just hand it too him.

Agreed, an A player won't give you much very often but there is a chance that his judgement will lapse and something a little higher percentage will come up. Maybe that's because my kicking skills, as in pocketing off a kick, are not too great. To me the shot taken, and made, seems just a little too low %. But that's just me.

Ed - Still likes the reasoning for taking the 3 railer though.
 
softshot said:
wow those are some complicated shots..

whats wrong with the simple 1 rail kick? then cutting the 8 ball to the corner?
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I might not have the layout 100%. DaBarbr said that he thought the one was a little farther out from the rail.
We did look at it and if making it there was almost no room to see the eight. The stripes might have been a little higher etc than in the cuetable.

I actually would have chosen a three railer( long version) over the one rail
kick if I was simply trying to hit make or make the ball and stay down table. the One was sitting exactly in a normal three rail path.
After looking and listening to Dabarbr I thought his three railer was the best option. Leaving the ball downtable with his balls just leaves to much room for a hook even if the good player makes a mistake. By bringing it up table it would have been a little tougher not to have a shot and get to the eight if the player makes a mistake.
 
kicking

Tying up the 8 with the 14 is a good move to buy time,depending on your opponent.Kicking safe 2 or 3 rails gets you nothing unless you get extremely lucky as to where the 1 and CB end up.

How about calling the 1 in the corner,taking the long 1 rail kick,just hard enough to make the 1.If you make it you have a challenging 8 ball shot but have a decent chance of blocking the pocket or tying up a ball.
 
Eric. said:
My choice too, see below:

CueTable Help




Eric
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I would do the 3-rails hard kick like milo showed. I dont think trying to tie the 8ball its a good idea.Its very easy for the other guy to play a safe-break shot, and leave you with another difficult kick.

CueTable Help

 
You're jacked up over the 11 if you try to tie up the 14 and the 8. You are breaking up the only cluster, to create another cluster. If the 14 ends up having any pocket, you just handed the game away. Playing against a strong player, if you do even get back to the table after tying them up, you will most likely be buried behind a ball, and be in a much worse position to win than what you had in the diagram.
 
shoot to win

I agree with Neil's thinking that you must try to win. Trying to tie up a ball against a good player will work less often than trying to win from the position he was left with.There is nothing that you can do to increase your chances of winning other than trying to win . If you tie up the 8 ball he will than untie them with one of a number of balls and stick you behind another ball. Try to win while you have some chance of winning before you end up with no chance of winning.
 
wincardona said:
I agree with Neil's thinking that you must try to win. Trying to tie up a ball against a good player will work less often than trying to win from the position he was left with.There is nothing that you can do to increase your chances of winning other than trying to win . If you tie up the 8 ball he will than untie them with one of a number of balls and stick you behind another ball. Try to win while you have some chance of winning before you end up with no chance of winning.
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Thank you sir. My shot was a go for the win but still had some degree of soundness to it because I felt the cue ball would go up table and maybe still keep me in the game. My opponent was a very good player and giving him ball in hand, I felt, was pure suicide. I was very confident of hitting the ball after the 3rd rail and knew the odds of making the ball was definitely not in my favor, Anytime someone makes this type of shot we all know there is a great amount of luck involved.
 
what ever is right for you

dabarbr said:
Thank you sir. My shot was a go for the win but still had some degree of soundness to it because I felt the cue ball would go up table and maybe still keep me in the game. My opponent was a very good player and giving him ball in hand, I felt, was pure suicide. I was very confident of hitting the ball after the 3rd rail and knew the odds of making the ball was definitely not in my favor, Anytime someone makes this type of shot we all know there is a great amount of luck involved.
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I would have to be at the table to feel what offensive shot I would prefer shooting in that type of a situation. The shot you chose was obviously the correct shot for you.But the lesson here is shoot to win whenever confronted with a similiar situation playing a good player.
 
Eric. said:
My choice too, see below:

CueTable Help




Eric
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I'm just a banger but I would kick long rail at the one. The problem I see with your shot is that you might not tie up the eight, and you leave him an opportunity to shoot the 14 into the rail and freeze the cue ball to the 13, making it a much tougher kick and an easier out if you don't get the 8 ball tied up, and he gets to break up his two problem balls the easy way.
 
B4IFURU18 said:
I would do the 3-rails hard kick like milo showed. I dont think trying to tie the 8ball its a good idea.Its very easy for the other guy to play a safe-break shot, and leave you with another difficult kick.

CueTable Help

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Good points by you and alstl.

Looking back, maybe the offensive route is the best way to go. My thinking is that the offensive % was so low at having a favorable outcome taht the safe might buy me a better kicking opportunity.

Using your example, B4IFURU18, I still think there is a chance that the 8 could have been moved to a more favorable position so that when I kicked at the 1, if I got lucky to make it, I would have a layup from almost anywhere to get position on the 8.

Good thread.


Eric
 
Eric. said:
Good points by you and alstl.

Looking back, maybe the offensive route is the best way to go. My thinking is that the offensive % was so low at having a favorable outcome taht the safe might buy me a better kicking opportunity.

Using your example, B4IFURU18, I still think there is a chance that the 8 could have been moved to a more favorable position so that when I kicked at the 1, if I got lucky to make it, I would have a layup from almost anywhere to get position on the 8.

Good thread.


Eric
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Also, if the guy is going to play a break-safe stop shot on the 14 breaking the 8/12 cluster, he'll also try to freeze the cue ball to the 13, blocking the long 1-rail kick(and possibly the 3-rail also) making the kick even more difficult.

All in all, we're definitely waaay behind here, and if we pull it off and win it this might become the turning point of the match.
 
In situations like this I agree that there is no real point in trying to defend. As has been pointed out, both the 3-rail shot actually played and the long 1-rail alternative have their attractions and dangers. But what would clinch it for me is which of them I was more confident at the time of getting, and that would depend on whether I could 'see' the angles or whether I just be guessing / using a system.

In times like this, it sometimes helps if you can activate the ring on your cell phone. Then you frown, take it out your pocket, answer it shout "Oh my God!" and run out.
 
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dabarbr said:
The actual thoughts behind this shot.

To tie up the eight ball or any of his balls and giving up ball in hand was not an option because the opponent is a very good player and I felt that what I had then was better than I would expect to have in the future.

I believe the one ball was just a little further off the rail than in the diagram making the two rail kick like Neil suggested too difficult. The one railer would be pointless because I would have be extremely lucky just to even have chance at the eight.

The one rail attempt would leave him the cue ball in a position with limitless options. In our time out we felt there was a chance to win the game along with the opportunity of leaving the cue ball up table with more distance from his balls if the one did not go in. More distance for him would make even the safeties more difficult to execute.This option also gets my ball away from his and may allow a better opportunity if he chooses to play safe.

It seems that Neil was more in tune to my way of reasoning on this. After I won that match FrankinCali stepped up and won the next match with good shooting, patience and safety play.

This was the finals in our in house Masters league.
Click to expand...

So what was the shot you missed to run out just previous to this ? :D Good shot though! These 3 rail kick shots do seem to channel toward an open pocket; thanks Frank for this thread as this is the kind of thinking I like to get into. :cool:
 
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