9-Ball Gurus, How About This Tricky Rack?

[sjm]

Here's a layout that Fillipino great Leonardo Andam faced in a PBT event in New Bedford, Massachussetts. I believe the year was 1997. I don't recall who the oppnent was.

It's a rack that you might well remember if you were there watching the match, so if you were there and saw it, don't ruin it for the others. It's a rack in which Andam's play surprised me quite a bit.

The first table below shows the position Andam faced and table two shows how he attempted to break out the two clustered balls to create a runout.
The third table shows the position Andam faced when he failed to break the cluster.

Clarifying matters, the seven is almost but not quite frozen to the bottom rail and the eight is not dead into any pocket off the seven.

The two questions open for review are:

1) Was Andam's approach in breaking out the cluster correct? Why or why not?
2) What shot do you think Andam played once he failed to break out the cluster?

 

[Rude Dog]

1) Yes, he just didn't execute.
2) He either thinned the 7 on the right and left it there on the rail and brought the CB back up table, or missed the 7 and gave up ball in hand.

 

[TheOne]

Nothing wrong with the original shot, if he makes it he prob wins, otherwise prob has a safe. Hard to tell from these diagrams but did he play the 7 into the rail then off the 8 to carom the 9 in? If not he just played the thing cut either safe or outragously off 3 rails to sink the 9!

Yep, he caroms the 7 off the 8 into the 9

PS
The banana down the rail (with loads of top) is tempting on the first shot (from someone whos practises it!), if you don't make the 9 will prob also have a safe due to strength of the hot.

 

[recoveryjones]

I would have probably tried to break up the 7+8 the way he did so as far as I know he didn't attempt the wrong shot.I'm not sure what he did next, however, seeing where the 9 is my guess is that he made it the very next shot somehow.RJ

 

[JoeyInCali]

I would have missed on purpose. lol

 

[sjm]

First the seven cannot be caromed below the eight to make the nine. There wasn't enough space under the eight for it to be possible. If my drawing is inaccurate regarding that point, I'm sorry.

Second, I'd like to hear somebody compare Andam's choice on shot 1 to the other approach to breaking the cluster, which would be to pocket the six, and cross to the other long rail on the way to running into the cluster.

 

[mjantti]

I think Andam made a good choice there. Trying to hit the opposite long rail from the 6-ball is not a good idea because if you miss the cluster, you'll probably end up hooking yourself on the 7-ball. When breaking a cluster in 9-ball with the next object ball in the cluster, always break it from the direction that if you miss the cluster, you still can see the ball on. I think 7-ball is ideally placed for the safety if you manage to get the cueball near the long rail on top of the picture.

The "banana shot" with maximum right english would be an interesting choice, but I wouldn't shoot it on a worn cloth. If you miss the 9, the english will bring the cueball near the intended position near the long rail where you can see the 7-ball.

 

[poolguy123]

I'm a rookie but I probably would not have tried the nearly do or die break-out shot. I might have went to the top rail ending up on the short side of the 7 with a close and easy safe shot to follow(or possibly a force follow thru the 7-8 to get the nine.). I don't like that long safety thin cut he has from above center table.

Jim

 

[Rickw]

With a shot like that, you shoot it the way it feels best for you at the time so he shot the right shot. The recovery shot for me would be to feather the 7 and bring the cb up table like Rude Dog suggested.

 

[mjantti]

I'm a rookie but I probably would not have tried the nearly do or die break-out shot. I might have went to the top rail ending up on the short side of the 7 with a close and easy safe shot to follow(or possibly a force follow thru the 7-8 to get the nine.). I don't like that long safety thin cut he has from above center table.

Jim

Most pros usually try to run out, no reason for letting your opponent back to the table, especially if you can't leave him snookered. But, your answer might give the best outcome against a semi-pro and below players. No reason to try the risky break-out shot, just play position for the safety and leave your opponent in a difficult position. Poolguy123's solution is a very mature way of playing this situation.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here's a layout that Fillipino great Leonardo Andam faced in a PBT event in New Bedford, Massachussetts. I believe the year was 1997. I don't recall who the oppnent was. ...

I think I probably would have tried what he played. On the other hand, if he had put himself on the end cushion on the short side of the seven, he could have played a simple run-through carom to make the nine which probably would have come out safe if he had missed it. On the third hand, playing to the short side has more risk of a scratch, which the break-out doesn't have. Hmm... Maybe the break-out does have a scratch possibility if the cue ball hits the eight on the right side.

 

[DaveK]

Second, I'd like to hear somebody compare Andam's choice on shot 1 to the other approach to breaking the cluster, which would be to pocket the six, and cross to the other long rail on the way to running into the cluster.

Coming in two (or three) rails to the other side of the pack (as suggested)seems to me to have a greater error margin for the hit. The shot played comes to the short rail at such a steep angle that even if he broke it out the remaining shot on the 7 might be very tough (long bank seems likely). Hot perfectly with the cue coming under the 8 and hitting the 7 would leave a simple 7, but again it seems easy to miss the breakout alltogether. Coming in from the other side could leave a simple 7-9 combo or carom.

Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

Second, I'd like to hear somebody compare Andam's choice on shot 1 to the other approach to breaking the cluster, which would be to pocket the six, and cross to the other long rail on the way to running into the cluster.

The problem with this is that if he comes in short he will be behind the eight ball and will have to kick at the seven. Trying to break like he did at least means he will have a direct path to hit the seven if he misses the break unless he hits the cue ball hard enough to move back to the 9-6 side of the table.

 

[Koop]

Maybe I'm about to show why I play in the APA and not with the big guns but couldn't this shot be executed by playing off the right side of the 7 with running english using 5, possibly 6 rails to make the 9? Not that I would even attempt it in a big game but it does look possible.

TheOne,
Could you explain the 3 rail shot? I'm unsure of the english required to come 3 rails at the 9.

Thank you,
Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

Maybe I'm about to show why I play in the APA and not with the big guns but couldn't this shot be executed by playing off the right side of the 7 with running english using 5, possibly 6 rails to make the 9? Not that I would even attempt it in a big game but it does look possible.

I assume you mean the shot off the seven: seven, end, right side, left side, other end, right side, nine ball.
Try it ten times, and I bet you won't come within a foot of nine. The problem is that the running english on the first two cushions is reverse on the third and fourth. There is a shot like this at 3-cushion, but it routinely goes back to about where the 7-8 are, and never, ever towards the corner where the nine is.

 

[Koop]

I assume you mean the shot off the seven: seven, end, right side, left side, other end, right side, nine ball.
Try it ten times, and I bet you won't come within a foot of nine. The problem is that the running english on the first two cushions is reverse on the third and fourth. There is a shot like this at 3-cushion, but it routinely goes back to about where the 7-8 are, and never, ever towards the corner where the nine is.

Thank you Bob. That is exactly what I meant and I always seem to forget about the reverse english off the rails. Does this happen because you are coming off another ball? I only ask because if you drive the cue ball into the rail it will keep running its course.

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[Rod]

It's hard to tell from diagrams exactly how one would shoot certain shots. To make the 9 if there is room, hit as full as possible with top left. The c/b hits the bottom rail then the right side and hooks back to the 9. It's a billiard shot. It sure would be testy from the short side but possible.

I think the shot he tried on the 6 was ok. Try to leave whitey on the short side for a follow thru carom may end up in a double kiss on the 7 because it can't get out of the way fast enough, depending on angle.

If he played a safety maybe a two rail kick possibly hitting rail first before the 7 and leave whitey at the head end near the left corner pocket. That way you may not give up a shot if the 8 doesn't travel far.

A thin on the 7 could leave a carom to the 9. Since the 7 was not frozen that's the possibilites I see.

Rod

 

[Bob Jewett]

...That is exactly what I meant and I always seem to forget about the reverse english off the rails. Does this happen because you are coming off another ball? I only ask because if you drive the cue ball into the rail it will keep running its course.

Well, if you hit an object ball fairly full, the spin on the cue ball is sort of "multiplied" because the cue ball loses some (or most) of its speed and very little of its spin. But I think that if you try your cushion pattern with just the cue ball, you will conclude that the spin the ball picks up on the first two cushions gets you the wrong angle off the third and fourth rails.

I think the best way to learn about what the cue ball wants to do over multiple cushions is to try 3-cushion, and the best place to start reading about it is in Byrne's "New Standard Book" the second half of which is about carom billiards.

Semih Sayginer does have a shot that follows your pattern as far as the cushions go, but the balls are sitting differently, and he doesn't use running english, and neither one of us is Semih Sayginer.

 

[Koop]

Well, if you hit an object ball fairly full, the spin on the cue ball is sort of "multiplied" because the cue ball loses some (or most) of its speed and very little of its spin. But I think that if you try your cushion pattern with just the cue ball, you will conclude that the spin the ball picks up on the first two cushions gets you the wrong angle off the third and fourth rails.

I think the best way to learn about what the cue ball wants to do over multiple cushions is to try 3-cushion, and the best place to start reading about it is in Byrne's "New Standard Book" the second half of which is about carom billiards.

Semih Sayginer does have a shot that follows your pattern as far as the cushions go, but the balls are sitting differently, and he doesn't use running english, and neither one of us is Semih Sayginer.

Thank you Bob.

 

[jer9ball]

SJM: 1. I think he chose the right first shot, from the right angle. This way if he misses, he still ends up in a spot where he can shoot the 7.

2. Thinning the 7 is risky, considering where the 9 is. I don't think any pro would simply give up ball in hand...that's futile. They'd try something...even a low % shot. With ball in hand on the 7, the 9 may be makeable either with a carom (7 to the 8), or by shooting the 7 through the 8...not sure.

Ok...my guess for the next shot is that it was a slow roller, off the long side rail. Just enough weight to tap the 7.

jer9ball