9 Ball Hitting Hard and Hoping as a Strategy

tashworth19191 said:
I play in a BCA 9 Ball league where in BCA slop counts. I have always tried to play safeties, make a good hit, shoot my ball and play position. But the table I play on are Valley Bar tables with huge pockets. Several 600 level Fargo players have now started just knocking the hell out of the ball and hoping something goes it.
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tashworth19191 said:
Obviously when they have shots they try and run out, but when an opponent leaves them bad, they just try and make a good hit and blast the balls.

What is your opinion?
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So here is the thing, in your last line that is the most important part of the post LOL
When you are in a bad position and a safe is hard and the shot is hard, then yes, just hitting and hoping is a very viable option. Not every turn at the table.

I do this all the time, and I'm sure most others do as well, but you need to make sure the very important part of "when there is no shot" is prominent not just "they started knocking the hell out of the ball and hoping". Those are two very different things. On a random bar table, a touch kick or a safe may be much harder to do, I have missed on many soft rolling safes when the ball rolled off and totally missed the hit. There is a time for luck to play a part in the shot, and a situation where there is nothing else really to do, may as well see what happens. Could make a ball, could make the 9, could get a safe, can leave a tough shot, can leave an easy shot. in 4 of 5 situations you are in as good of a position or better as you were before.
 
tashworth19191 said:
I agree, that is why it frustrates me when I play a good safe and someone kicks the ball with as much speed as they can just trying to luck something in. I have lost way to many matches this way in 9 ball.
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They made a good hit? Then what happens after that was the result of that good hit. Normal situation and normal result. Or do you want to have an easy shot after they make a hit for you? Then the other person would be complaining they made a good hit but you had an easy shot anyway. So sometimes you win from there, and sometimes the other person does, it's normal.
 
All I know is that most of the people I play, just smashing balls will not work out well.
Usually a miss (Hail Mary shot) means I don't get back to the table.
Really good kick safeties are done with perfectly calculated speed.
 
People used to have to pay for this hi-level strategy.

Riding the cheese is particularly effective in ring games, especially if you won the game or two before.
 
In a ring game or pea pool game 3-4 C & B players taking flyers can be profitable in the long run because your getting a good price on shitting in a money ball-especially if your playing with 2 peas. Then all balls are $ balls. That vig makes it worth while.

Playing A players and stronger it’s a bad idea most of the time.
 
gregcantrall said:
Efren is luckiest kick hitter of All Time.😉
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there is a difference in kicking a planned kick shot and firing away an ricocheting ball off 3 rails and kiss off 4 random balls. I wasn't talking about a planned outcome. What I was talking about is a strategy where you hit em hard and hope something goes in. IMO this is not the pool I want to play, but I may start playing this way just to compete.
 
tashworth19191 said:
there is a difference in kicking a planned kick shot and firing away an ricocheting ball off 3 rails and kiss off 4 random balls. I wasn't talking about a planned outcome. What I was talking about is a strategy where you hit em hard and hope something goes in. IMO this is not the pool I want to play, but I may start playing this way just to compete.
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So what do you do then if you have very little chance of a controlled shot going your way? You have a 5% chance of making a good hit that won't sell out, a 5% chance of making a called shot, or a higher chance of getting lucky on a hard hit where they may not have a good shot after that, or you can make a ball or make the 9 and win. It's silly to shoot any shot where your chances of winning don't go up, no matter if it's totally skilled or relying on chance. I would take a 75% chance of something good happening to me on a hail mary shot than a 20% chance of something else. Can there be a better situation than before for you after the shot? Then it's the right shot. Say you are stuck behind a stack of 4 balls, you miss a "planned kick", the wall of balls are still there. You hit the thing hard, you have a chance of moving those balls out so the guy has a harder second safety even if you don't make a legal hit. You can make a legal hit and leave the guy hooked in return, or do any number of other things that change the position to even or in your favor.

Even Buddy Hall, one of the most controlled players ever, has said "sometimes blasting them is the right strategy". Like I said in my earlier reply, the key line is "when no other option is better". This is different than when someone has an easy run out of 5 balls and they go for a combo on the 9 that is not very easy. But, even then, let's say the player is a D or C player and they know they have a hard time of making 5 balls even when they are open. Going for a lucky 9 may be the "right" thing for them in that case, and I have played with quite a few players that do go for a silly shot on the 9 when the run out is easy for me, because it's not a very easy run out to them. Usually I win, but at times even if they don't make the 9 they end up tying up a ball or leaving me hooked, or something. So from their point of view, the shot was "good".
 
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hang-the-9 said:
So what do you do then if you have very little chance of a controlled shot going your way? You have a 5% chance of making a good hit that won't sell out, a 5% chance of making a called shot, or a higher chance of getting lucky on a hard hit where they may not have a good shot after that, or you can make a ball or make the 9 and win. It's silly to shoot any shot where your chances of winning don't go up, no matter if it's totally skilled or relying on chance. I would take a 75% chance of something good happening to me on a hail mary shot than a 20% chance of something else. Can there be a better situation than before for you after the shot? Then it's the right shot. Say you are stuck behind a stack of 4 balls, you miss a "planned kick", the wall of balls are still there. You hit the thing hard, you have a chance of moving those balls out so the guy has a harder second safety even if you don't make a legal hit. You can make a legal hit and leave the guy hooked in return, or do any number of other things that change the position to even or in your favor.

Even Buddy Hall, one of the most controlled players ever, has said "sometimes blasting them is the right strategy". Like I said in my earlier reply, the key line is "when no other option is better". This is different than when someone has an easy run out of 5 balls and they go for a combo on the 9 that is not very easy. But, even then, let's say the player is a D or C player and they know they have a hard time of making 5 balls even when they are open. Going for a lucky 9 may be the "right" thing for them in that case, and I have played with quite a few players that do go for a silly shot on the 9 when the run out is easy for me, because it's not a very easy run out to them. Usually I win, but at times even if they don't make the 9 they end up tying up a ball or leaving me hooked, or something. So from their point of view, the shot was "good".
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Sometimes you tie up a couple or three balls (intentional bad hit) and give up ball in hand.
Let your opponent figure out how to break up the clusters in order to run out.
That is sometimes your only option.
 
philly said:
Sometimes you tie up a couple or three balls (intentional bad hit) and give up ball in hand.
Let your opponent figure out how to break up the clusters in order to run out.
That is sometimes your only option.
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Yep, tying up balls is also an idea when there is not much else to do. But I find that against good players, your next shot is not any better than the prior shot you had, and sometimes worse. Usually when you are in a mess and don't improve the situation, you are in a bigger mess shortly after LOL

There are still situations when a hard hit at something is as good as anything fully planned out. I mean actively playing to get lucky is also a controlled action is it not? This shot, that shot, nothing seems good to do, lets hit it and then see where the balls lie afterwards. Seems like a purposeful and willful move to me. And again, it's not on every other shot in the rack, the situation where good players are playing for luck is rare, but can be the best action to take.
 
tashworth19191 said:
there is a difference in kicking a planned kick shot and firing away an ricocheting ball off 3 rails and kiss off 4 random balls. I wasn't talking about a planned outcome. What I was talking about is a strategy where you hit em hard and hope something goes in. IMO this is not the pool I want to play, but I may start playing this way just to compete.
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In 9 ball I always said, "it's not a good ride unless it goes by at least 3 pockets."
By breaking 3 ball then kicking them in for practice, I improved my luck significantly.
B and C players ring game would evaporate if I broke and ran a rack. Yet making multiple money balls in a rack was accepted. 🤷😁
Kind of like a Magic Show, some don't mind paying for entertainment.
 
So if a player gets beat by the lucky banger.... maybe, just maybe they really aren't the B+ player they think they are.🤷
 
I am not even talking about the D player playing an A player. I am talking about when I am the D player and The A player blast the balls constantly because I play so bad I missed my shot and hooked them accidently. The A player I am talking about could run racks if given a shot, but they use banging the balls as a strategy.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Yep, tying up balls is also an idea when there is not much else to do. But I find that against good players, your next shot is not any better than the prior shot you had, and sometimes worse. Usually when you are in a mess and don't improve the situation, you are in a bigger mess shortly after LOL

There are still situations when a hard hit at something is as good as anything fully planned out. I mean actively playing to get lucky is also a controlled action is it not? This shot, that shot, nothing seems good to do, lets hit it and then see where the balls lie afterwards. Seems like a purposeful and willful move to me. And again, it's not on every other shot in the rack, the situation where good players are playing for luck is rare, but can be the best action to take.
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Like I said, tie up some balls.
It absolutely improves your situation.
If your opponent doesn't want to run out then you get back to the table.
If he wants to run out then he has clusters to deal with.
Getting to and staying at the table is what it is all about and if that's the case then tying up the balls worked.
The proof is you getting back to the table and the layout is now different than when you were hooked..
 
tashworth19191 said:
I am not even talking about the D player playing an A player. I am talking about when I am the D player and The A player blast the balls constantly because I play so bad I missed my shot and hooked them accidently. The A player I am talking about could run racks if given a shot, but they use banging the balls as a strategy.
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In that situation the A player isn't worried about the D player running out so there is little risk to banging the balls if there isn't a good safety or offensive shot.
 
tashworth19191 said:
I play in a BCA 9 Ball league where in BCA slop counts. I have always tried to play safeties, make a good hit, shoot my ball and play position. But the table I play on are Valley Bar tables with huge pockets. Several 600 level Fargo players have now started just knocking the hell out of the ball and hoping something goes it. The usually hit it as hard as a break shot and try and stop the cue ball. Believe it or not, it is working. I have to say that the stats I have taken in my own game where the opponent does this works about 60% of the time.

I don't think this would work well on Diamond table or larger tables, but on these tables with the 4.5" pockets with huge shelf seems to work well. Obviously when they have shots they try and run out, but when an opponent leaves them bad, they just try and make a good hit and blast the balls.

What is your opinion?
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If there are clusters and I'm in a bad spot, I'll bust the hell out of them as long as I can leave the cue ball safe. My goal really isn't to make a ball (though I'll gladly keep going if it does), it's to take care of problems and leave it bad so I can run out if/when I get another turn.

I know slop can be frustrating to the uninitiated, but most slop that I do is part of a two way shot. If it goes, it goes. If not I'll have the CB tucked into a nasty location. Slop works best at pocket speed, so it's not the guys bashing the balls at break speed that you have to worry about. It's when the "slopped" ball goes nicely into the pocket at the correct speed that could denote a dangerous opponent.

A 9 ball player (or leagues allowing slop) should learn that it's called "creativity" and not slop. I slop way more in on 9B because it's part of the game. I RARELY slop anything on 8B or 10B. 9B allows creativity and shots with multiple objectives so you gotta learn how to harness that.

If they are "stopping the CB" they are probably playing to give you a bad leave and just pushing balls, trying to see what happens. There are also just hit em hard bangers and I have no idea about that.

I also don't mind playing off difficult shots (where I control the CB) as slop. This keeps an opponent guessing and for certain opponents it can lead them to entirely melt down. There are also shots I like to call "free rolls" where you try to make it, but if it doesn't go, your opponent is hidden. You have a shot at the next highest ball should the "free roll" fall, but if it doesn't, the opponent better be able to kick or jump well.
 
hang-the-9 said:
So what do you do then if you have very little chance of a controlled shot going your way? You have a 5% chance of making a good hit that won't sell out, a 5% chance of making a called shot, or a higher chance of getting lucky on a hard hit where they may not have a good shot after that, or you can make a ball or make the 9 and win. It's silly to shoot any shot where your chances of winning don't go up, no matter if it's totally skilled or relying on chance. I would take a 75% chance of something good happening to me on a hail mary shot than a 20% chance of something else. Can there be a better situation than before for you after the shot? Then it's the right shot. Say you are stuck behind a stack of 4 balls, you miss a "planned kick", the wall of balls are still there. You hit the thing hard, you have a chance of moving those balls out so the guy has a harder second safety even if you don't make a legal hit. You can make a legal hit and leave the guy hooked in return, or do any number of other things that change the position to even or in your favor.

Even Buddy Hall, one of the most controlled players ever, has said "sometimes blasting them is the right strategy". Like I said in my earlier reply, the key line is "when no other option is better". This is different than when someone has an easy run out of 5 balls and they go for a combo on the 9 that is not very easy. But, even then, let's say the player is a D or C player and they know they have a hard time of making 5 balls even when they are open. Going for a lucky 9 may be the "right" thing for them in that case, and I have played with quite a few players that do go for a silly shot on the 9 when the run out is easy for me, because it's not a very easy run out to them. Usually I win, but at times even if they don't make the 9 they end up tying up a ball or leaving me hooked, or something. So from their point of view, the shot was "good".
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I was going to point out that Buddy saw whacking hell out of the balls as a viable option sometimes. He doesn't do it often because he usually has better options.

The OP has an issue because he doesn't like other player's style. I felt the same once about the people that shot way too hard and rearranged the furniture danged near every time they went to the table. Then I learned to disregard if that was good or bad, just the way they played. Once I accepted this style of play I didn't let it annoy me. It might work sometimes but in general it costs them more than it costs me so why get upset?

I have had many friends and acquaintances bellyache to me about people that shoot wild. Always told them that the other player was doing more damage in their head than on the table, chill, you are going to end up with his money anyway.

OP, Don't sweat the players that rearrange the furniture all of the time. You should be able to deal with it better than they can.

Hu
 
600-level FargoRate is a good player. At that level they will make smart choices. A runout is a culmination of smart choices. A safety is a smart choice. And escaping a safety is a matter of smart choices and often a little luck.

When you kick at a ball, there’s usually a speed you can hit the cueball that has possibilities for good outcomes and a speed that’ll almost always sell out. Sometimes the best option is to just whack it and hope to make something, tie something up, or get safe.

But that’s not a one-size-fits-all strategy. You have to know when it’s right. Don’t walk away just thinking that this is merely a sloppy game because playing with that in mind doesn’t win sets.
 
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