9-Ball Luck 8-ball not so much

I agree nine ball requires more of a repetoire as a player than does eight ball. When you look at lower class players who get lucky in each people normally associate luck with fluking a ball or safety. Now consider how many times that same player has been playing 8 ball and tries for shape for a certain ball and blows it only to have a bail out ball miraculously available. I agree that higher calibre players must have strong pattern play to suceed in 8 ball, whereas 9 ball is relatively mapped for you, however, this thread is apparently about luck. Given how many flukes happen in a game of 9,compare that to the bail out balls in 8 and you will see where the real luck happens.

In closing, if you break in 8 ball and make 5 balls with no clusters what are the chances of getting out? What are your chances if the same happens in 9 ball....oh yeah, you plant the cue ball in the middle of the table for both breaks....hmmm where is the 1 ball? I guess there is a bit more to getting a chance than just slamming the rack eh....Now which is an easier game?
 
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What burns me up is that slopping in a ball in nine ball counts at all!! It should be spotted and if you didn't make your object ball you should be sitting down and not continuing to shoot. It has IMO degraded the sport of pocket billiards and I play much less nine ball all the time as a result. How many times have you seen a top player slop a ball and then want to apologize to the opponent? There body language tells it all they are slightly embarassed but have to continue to play on. It is ridiculous...
Dan
 
Hail Mary Shot said:
This is a new line of questioning. my answer is Yes. I do not only feel but also encountered it and some guys as well.

8-ball is a much easier game to break and run out than 9-ball. We have documented evidence from the IPT and from Accu-Stats that it's true among the pros, and it's also true among C players.

The obvious difference that makes this the case, and a fact that the other differences between the games does not change, is that you have to run the balls in rotation playing 9-ball, while in 8-ball you can shoot any ball you like among the stripes or the solids, and then the 8. The former is much more difficult, and comparing the the break and run percentages among pros for 8-ball vs. 9-ball shows this, and my experience of 26 years of playing does as well.
 
PoolSponge said:
I agree nine ball requires more of a repetoire as a player than does eight ball. When you look at lower class players who get lucky in each people normally associate luck with fluking a ball or safety. Now consider how many times that same player has been playing 8 ball and tries for shape for a certain ball and blows it only to have a bail out ball miraculously available. I agree that higher calibre players must have strong pattern play to suceed in 8 ball, whereas 9 ball is relatively mapped for you, however, this thread is apparently about luck. Given how many flukes happen in a game of 9,compare that to the bail out balls in 8 and you will see where the real luck happens.

In closing, if you break in 8 ball and make 5 balls with no clusters what are the chances of getting out? What are your chances if the same happens in 9 ball....oh yeah, you plant the cue ball in the middle of the table for both breaks....hmmm where is the 1 ball? I guess there is a bit more to getting a chance than just slamming the rack eh....Now which is an easier game?


Exactly the Point Dude ! ;)
 
PoolBum said:
8-ball is a much easier game to break and run out than 9-ball. We have documented evidence from the IPT and from Accu-Stats that it's true among the pros, and it's also true among C players.

The obvious difference that makes this the case, and a fact that the other differences between the games does not change, is that you have to run the balls in rotation playing 9-ball, while in 8-ball you can shoot any ball you like among the stripes or the solids, and then the 8. The former is much more difficult, and comparing the the break and run percentages among pros for 8-ball vs. 9-ball shows this, and my experience of 26 years of playing does as well.

We are talking about Luck Percentage here between 9 ball and 8 ball. as was previously mentioned that how many racks are there won in 9-ball compared to 8 ball in a same race to 9 format? how many times and how many of those racks won by simply pocketing the 9 with much less effort due to a foul, BIH, easy combo and lucky bounce or hit than fouling and pocketing the 8 in 8-ball? though I do agree with you that playing 8 ball gives you an advantage in pocketing your balls in random order, but it also challenges your consistent pocketing skills because of the required number of balls needed to win the game. both 9-ball and 8 ball have pros and cons, but it is most likely the percentages of luck favor 9-ball. and like I said previously, if those rules that I've mentioned were adapted in 9-ball, by then I myself would attest the minimal involvement of luck in 9 ball compared to 8 ball. with that rule adapted, it is most likely that a player would hinder himself from banging away without prejudice.
 
PoolBum said:
8-ball is a much easier game to break and run out than 9-ball. We have documented evidence from the IPT and from Accu-Stats that it's true among the pros, and it's also true among C players.

The obvious difference that makes this the case, and a fact that the other differences between the games does not change, is that you have to run the balls in rotation playing 9-ball, while in 8-ball you can shoot any ball you like among the stripes or the solids, and then the 8. The former is much more difficult, and comparing the the break and run percentages among pros for 8-ball vs. 9-ball shows this, and my experience of 26 years of playing does as well.

Agreed. Also, if 8 ball were that much more challenging than 9 ball, from a casual player's point of view, why are so many millions of people, who can't run two balls, playing 8 ball?
 
To me ...

Johnnyt said:
If the other thread if close to being correct that the 8-ball only drops about 1% - 2% on the break, then it's a fact that 9-ball has too much luck in it for who the best player is. Add in the other factors like if the nine gets kicked in while shooting another ball...you win...what BS.

What is the percentage for 9-ball on the break...10%? I hate 9-ball. Johnnyt

Nine Ball is only good as a quick money game ! I play Eight unless I find a player that loves straight pool as I do ! :eek:
 
This thread has helped prove a point to me.....you can't beat BFL.....blind freaking luck......no matter what the game.

I have respect for all the games. I prefer call ball, call pocket types but even then there is some amount of luck. I quit thinking that one game is better than the other. They all have strong points and weak points.

No matter what the game, there are two aspects that are common....gotta make a ball, gotta get position. Luck does not last.
 
3andstop said:
Now that would make for some interesting stats. Get an A player and a C player and let them play two sets to 9 each in 9 ball and 8 ball. Lets see which game the C player manages more wins in.

I have a couple of observations concerning your proposed experiment. First, there is too big a gap between the skill levels. The A player is going to drill the C no matter what the game. You would have to alternate breaks, or the C player may never get out of the chair.

There has been a guy coming around the pool room recently who is pretty much a banger. He guess you would call him a D+ or a C-. He will sometimes surprise you with his shot making, but has no clue about position. I have been watching him for about a month, and I have yet to see the guy play an intentional safety. He is constantly riding the nine and shooting sell out banks. He recently was playing two dollar racks with one of our local A players. I don't know what he ended up losing, but there was one point where he lost around thirty racks in a row. I hear a lot of crying about how lucky this guy is, but it isn't being done by the good players. They just shut up and play, knowing that they are going to win ten games for every one he does.

By coincidence, I have been recently playing a C player from across the river some eight ball and nine ball. I am a weak B, so we started with me giving him the called eight. The first night we played two sets and split. The second night I beat him three sets. Now he doesn't want to play without the seven out. So we switch to eight ball.

Now, I haven't played that game since I quit drinking about ten years ago. I don't consider myself a eight ball player at all, and I have a shitty break. I do play straight pool, so that helps me bridge the gap somewhat. I managed to win here as well, but the scores were much closer. He would typically run five or six balls in eight ball, and that was enough to win some racks because I failed to make a ball on the break the entire night.

In nine ball, he is typically out of position after two shots. He has a pretty good stroke, but doesn't have the cue ball control and knowledge of patterns to be successful against good players. Admittedly, we haven't played enough yet to have a valid statistical picture, but the early indication is that his run out percentage in eight ball would be much higher. And the fact that I have superior skills and knowledge doesn't make as much difference in eight ball, mainly because they are just not needed all that often. In fact, it seemed to me that the biggest factor in the outcome was owning the balls with the most favorable layout.

I have also played some eight ball with a D player from my local room. In the weekly nine ball tournament, I have beaten this guy giving him five on the wire in a race to seven. He can't threaten a rail in nine ball, let alone a pocket. But in eight ball, he also put together runs of five and six balls a couple of times. I am sorry, but it's hard for me to swallow that eight ball is a better test that a rotation style game, when guys who have almost no cue skills can clear a rack.
 
Just my two cents...
As far as sheer luck goes, I don't think you can compare the two, 9-ball wins hands down here! It's easier to make the 9 on the break. On any given shot you have a chance to win the game immediately by either a good combo or a hale-mary. You can fluke safe easier, and you can win without ever having to run more than 1 ball. However, I do feel 9-ball requires more skill in shot making and once you get to a certain level it defiantly has it's own patterns that come up on a regular basis.

8-Ball has less luck but it does present more options when shooting. It's harder to make the 8 on the break, and in order win (barring your opponent scratching) you will have to run 8 balls (give or take a couple on the break.) You don't usually have to shoot as many tough, length of the table shots, however cue ball control is a must to play at a high level. Also, as someone previously mentioned you often times have bail out balls...however as you run balls it generally become more imperative that your pattern play and cue ball control tighten up in order to finish the run out. I guarantee if you get up there and run 5 or 6 balls on me and don't get out and I still have most if not all of my balls on the table I'm going to beat you at least 95% of the time (I'm allowing myself 5% wiggle room here for weird safeties, table lays and/or me dogging a ball ;-)

So here's my final point...do I think an A player is going to destroy a C player if the sets are right...YES! But compared to the way most tournaments are run, the sets in 9-ball tournaments aren't long enough for this to play out as they should. A C player can and will occasionally upset an A player in a race to 9. Not very often mind you, but it can and does happen...the C player gets hot, is making balls and slopping crap in like crazy, the A player is having a bad day, not breaking well and just getting unlucky. Make it a race to 20 and the A player will still probably be able to get it going enough with just basic consistency and table knowledge to pull out the win.

In a race to 9 8-ball I don't think a C player could ever beat a real A player no matter how bad the A player was playing. They just won't run enough racks. An A player on the worst day of their "A-life" could literally just sit there and let the C player shoot first every single time run off balls and then just out move them playing safe and picking off key balls till they had a no brainer out. The C player simply will not be able to run enough racks from the break to get there.

Sorry about the book!

P.S. For the record, I do think 9-ball on a big table is harder to play well than 8-ball on a big table. You just don't end up with that many clusters on a 9-footer playing 8-ball (IMO part of the reason you saw so many run outs on the IPT.) So of course I think the inverse is true...I think 8-ball on a bar table is tougher to play than 9-ball on a bar table. Way more clusters! You almost have to plan the table from start to finish!
Also, when I'm talking about 8-ball here I am talking about a league/game/tournament with some sort of punishment for fouls, call pocket, etc. NOT bar rules! lol
 
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