9 Ball racking rule question...

Guerra Cues

Guerra Cues

I build one cue at a time
Silver Member
Hey folks,
I played one another stop of the California Pool Players Tour and on my last game that would give access to the cash, I played an older guy that played better than I did, because of that he won.
Having said that, he racked all the time with balls in order and I noticed that the 7 and 8 ball sit in the table almost in the same areas. I only noticed that after we were tied 3-3 or he was winning 4-3.
I talked to Vince Bramwell, the director of the Tour and he said it was OK to rack the balls in order. I thought it was bull$hit and told him that. I thought that the office BCA rules said that the 9 ball rack needs to be setup in random order. Only the 1 and 9 have fixed spots. My opponent never said a word while I was talking because he knew he was doing something wrong...
Am I wrong here?
 
drooling.gif

Oh boy, another pattern racking thread.


Think I'll sit this one out and just spectate.

Popcornsmilie.gif
 
BENFICA said:
Hey folks,
I played one another stop of the California Pool Players Tour and on my last game that would give access to the cash, I played an older guy that played better than I did, because of that he won.
Having said that, he racked all the time with balls in order and I noticed that the 7 and 8 ball sit in the table almost in the same areas. I only noticed that after we were tied 3-3 or he was winning 4-3.
I talked to Vince Bramwell, the director of the Tour and he said it was OK to rack the balls in order. I thought it was bull$hit and told him that. I thought that the office BCA rules said that the 9 ball rack needs to be setup in random order. Only the 1 and 9 have fixed spots. My opponent never said a word while I was talking because he knew he was doing something wrong...
Am I wrong here?
Click to expand...


The balls (besides the 1 and 9) can be racked in any order you like. In fact, Pat Fleming is known for racking the balls in a particular order as to give opponent a harder run of the table.
 
Under WPA ("World-Standardized") rules, pattern racking is illegal. Here's the wording in the 9-Ball rules (the wording is similar for 10-Ball):
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.​

Organizations that use their own rules may or may not have similar wording.

But even in tournaments that purportedly are played under WPA rules, pattern racking seems to be ignored (allowed) by some tournament directors.
 
It all depends on the rules of the tournament. In most of the tournaments I have played if it rack your own or rack for eachother the racker can rack the balls however he/she pleases. It's not really an advantage unless they make a ball on the break anyway.

There are ways to rack and make it easier to run out and there are ways to rack to make it harder to run out. It rarely makes that much difference imo.

Dud
 
BENFICA said:
Why do you say that? I am not asking a valid question?
This is a rule related question, not a pattern related question.

:confused:
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Your question is quite valid, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. My post was simply meant to say that I've gotten into this discussion before. I have a definite viewpoint that a significant number of people disagree with and I'm just tired of it. But since you directly asked me I'll give you my take and then go back to the sidelines.

I checked the the CPPT website and unfortunately (and surprisingly too I might add) they make no reference to the rules that are in force on the tour. The only things I saw were related to unsportsmanlike conduct, dress code, and the Magic Rack.

Given that glaring omission, the WPA rules expressly prohibit any intentional placement of balls other than the requirements for the one and nine ball. Assuming the tour is played under WPA rules then your protest is correct, your opponent was racking the balls in violation of the rules.

I suppose technically you are wrong in the sense that an official ruled on the matter and ruled against you. I guess that if an official rules on something the ruling is final even if it is a bad one. If the tour is being played by WPA rules then it was a bad ruling. Just because an official rules that cheating is OK doesn't make it right, it just makes it official. Again, this is all based on WPA rules, but given the TD's ruling I guess the tour is not played by WPA rules. If pattern racking is actually allowed then racking in order is within the rules.

If this tour is to be taken seriously, they really should have the rules posted on their website, or at least reference what rules are in place (WPA, BCA, BCAPL, APA, etc.).


Mr441 said:
The balls (besides the 1 and 9) can be racked in any order you like. In fact, Pat Fleming is known for racking the balls in a particular order as to give opponent a harder run of the table.
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This is not true. Read the rules. The only set of rules that I am aware of that allow this is the APA league rules. I know of no events outside of APA league events that play by APA rules.


Back to the bench I go. :wink:
 
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Every professional pattern racks. Mostly because they want to win. They rules may state otherwise but they are both doing it so neither will say a word. Like jaywalking, get over it.
 
cleary said:
Every professional pattern racks. Mostly because they want to win. They rules may state otherwise but they are both doing it so neither will say a word. Like jaywalking, get over it.
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I understand what you are saying, but what do official rules say? I knew about WPA ruling, I've always under the impression that pattern racking was not permitted.
 
BENFICA said:
Hey folks,
I played one another stop of the California Pool Players Tour and on my last game that would give access to the cash, I played an older guy that played better than I did, because of that he won.
Having said that, he racked all the time with balls in order and I noticed that the 7 and 8 ball sit in the table almost in the same areas. I only noticed that after we were tied 3-3 or he was winning 4-3.
I talked to Vince Bramwell, the director of the Tour and he said it was OK to rack the balls in order. I thought it was bull$hit and told him that. I thought that the office BCA rules said that the 9 ball rack needs to be setup in random order. Only the 1 and 9 have fixed spots. My opponent never said a word while I was talking because he knew he was doing something wrong...
Am I wrong here?
Click to expand...
Every tournament has its own rules. By playing in their event, you are making an agreement to be subject to their rules and to the decisions of their tournament officials. But...

I think you already answered your own question in the bold print. The director of the tour gave the OK to rack the balls that way.
 
Enforcement?

How do you enforce it?
Warning if suspected. A random generator to ensure the rack is different from the last one. Good luck with this fight. LOLS
 
BENFICA said:
Hey folks,
I played one another stop of the California Pool Players Tour and on my last game that would give access to the cash, I played an older guy that played better than I did, because of that he won.
Having said that, he racked all the time with balls in order and I noticed that the 7 and 8 ball sit in the table almost in the same areas. I only noticed that after we were tied 3-3 or he was winning 4-3.
I talked to Vince Bramwell, the director of the Tour and he said it was OK to rack the balls in order. I thought it was bull$hit and told him that. I thought that the office BCA rules said that the 9 ball rack needs to be setup in random order. Only the 1 and 9 have fixed spots. My opponent never said a word while I was talking because he knew he was doing something wrong...
Am I wrong here?
Click to expand...

he put them in order ... do you mean like this?

1
2 3
4 9 5
6 7
8


personally if someone racked that order on me i would be fine with it

8 goes up table away from the 9 most of the time and the 6 or 7 away from the 8

If the 8 and 7 were both staying down table everytime without the 8 going around the whole table then most likely the rack wasn't tight.

If the rack wasn't tight then most likely you'll get a shot at some point because he's not planning on making a wing ball, he's just trying to luck one in or playing for the 1 ball in side which is harder when the rack is loose.

Pattern racking isn't a full proof method of getting an easy run. It improves your odds, but you still have to hit the 1 square with good speed, park it in the center, and hope the 1 doesn't get blocked by other stuff coming up table.

Just make sure to throw the 2 in the back of the rack so it goes up near the 1, play for a wing ball, and keep that cue ball in the center of the table so you have a shot on the 1 with hopefully easy placement to the 2.

Pattern Racking is the same type of knowledge as kicking 3 rails, 2 rail banks, and knowing how to jump. If you don't know how to do it, learn. If you're stubborn to learn, then you'll be at a disadvantage. Everyone is open to this knowledge you just gotta find it or pay attention to the pros. While watching the US Open almost every player pattern racked. Why do you think they made it a rule that the 2 ball has to be in the back of the rack? 2 in the back is the only ball you must remember, the rest of the balls can be changed in different patterns and still be affective, but the 2 in the back gives you a great chance at getting a shot on the 1 where placement to the 2 isn't too bad.

Even if you pattern racked, broke perfect with a perfect rack, you still need some luck that clusters don't form, your 1 ball doesn't get blocked, and you make the wing ball.

With all that said, i don't see pattern racking going anywhere, they should just make it a rule that the 1, 2, and 9 ball have fixed positions in the rack.

oh and this is all imho :smile:
 
Zivan1967 said:
... While watching the US Open almost every player pattern racked. ...
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I doubt it. From what the Accu-Stats announcers said, the requirement was that the 2-ball be in the back and that the other six balls (other than the 1-ball and 9-ball) be racked randomly.

Perhaps the match that might be given highest suspicion with rack-your-own pattern racking is the almost-perfect match on Friday evening between Immonen and Klatt. Immonen broke 11 times. He was dry once and made the right-side wing ball the other 10 games. (He also made one additional ball in two of those 10 games and two additional balls in one of those 10 games.) But here's my point. The wing ball that dropped those 10 games, was, in order: 5, 6, 7, 6, 8, 8, 3, 4, 5, 3. In other words, he was not pattern racking.
 
BENFICA said:
Hey folks,
I played one another stop of the California Pool Players Tour and on my last game that would give access to the cash, I played an older guy that played better than I did, because of that he won.
Having said that, he racked all the time with balls in order and I noticed that the 7 and 8 ball sit in the table almost in the same areas. I only noticed that after we were tied 3-3 or he was winning 4-3.
I talked to Vince Bramwell, the director of the Tour and he said it was OK to rack the balls in order. I thought it was bull$hit and told him that. I thought that the office BCA rules said that the 9 ball rack needs to be setup in random order. Only the 1 and 9 have fixed spots. My opponent never said a word while I was talking because he knew he was doing something wrong...
Am I wrong here?
Click to expand...

you've just seen pattern racking first hand. really though unless he's stringing racks you still have a good chance to win each game.

all you have to do is beat him to the first open shot then run out! you should come play some cheap 9 ball with me Tony! i don't play great but i know a few little moves that might have helped you win that match.

i bet you forgot to spit in the chalk!
 
AtLarge said:
I doubt it. From what the Accu-Stats announcers said, the requirement was that the 2-ball be in the back and that the other six balls (other than the 1-ball and 9-ball) be racked randomly.

Perhaps the match that might be given highest suspicion with rack-your-own pattern racking is the almost-perfect match on Friday evening between Immonen and Klatt. Immonen broke 11 times. He was dry once and made the right-side wing ball the other 10 games. (He also made one additional ball in two of those 10 games and two additional balls in one of those 10 games.) But here's my point. The wing ball that dropped those 10 games, was, in order: 5, 6, 7, 6, 8, 8, 3, 4, 5, 3. In other words, he was not pattern racking.
Click to expand...

First note is there is more than one way to pattern rack.

Second I didn't see Mika's match but the fact that the 2 ball has to be in the back of the rack is basically all you need to get the run going. 1 goes up table or in side, up goes 2 from being in the back, make the wing ball, and if you get the cue ball center (which is harder using the cut break when breaking from the box as they did in the US Open) then you should have a great chance to run out. Granted they made 2 in the back part of the rules, but i believe they made it part of the rules BECAUSE most people were going to do it anyway with rack your own.

Lastly if you get a chance to, look back at the racks, check the patterns the breaker uses and compare them with how they set it up the next rack, if it changes it only changes a bit. Mika however is one of the few that enforces random racking. I've seen him in another tournament call the ref on shane for having the 2 in the back of the rack always.

EDIT: actually it might have been 10 ball and he was saying that shane kept having the 2 somewhere, either way it was about pattern racking lol i just can't remember what game.

Everyone has there opinions though. I believe in rack your own, on a 9 foot table, i will always put the 2 in the back if i can. The rest might be random but when you know its a big help to place a ball somewhere specific in the rack, how can you not put it there with rack your own?
 
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