9 Ball - Really as bad as everyone says?

[Fixer]

A little OT now but I really wonder what ever happened to earls big break. The last couple of years 2000- his cueball was going all over even at moderate speed.

The break SHOULD be a factor, that is not the case in modern 9-ball. Woody Allen could break well in 9-ball.

 

[frankwhite]

do you know me?

Sould I?????????????????????

 

[frankwhite]

i'm happy you put tables together. by the way i dont have any autographs maybe i can get yours sometime, thanks in advance

Putting tables together aint got $hit to do w/ what Im talkin about. I have been playin top level pool long before I have been doing table work. And no you cant have a autograph because Im just a shortstop that loves the game.

All I have done here is just place a friendly opinoin, then you have the trolls like yourself who think they no everything that has to do w/ pool, its a shame. Thats is why most of all the pro's donot even attempt to post on here anymore because of people like yourself. It is a damn shame that nobodys opinion means anything to you but your own....LOL......Terrible!!!

 

[av84fun]

9 ball is fine, it's the short races which have magnified the game's flaws

the 3 most recent truly great players (Sigel, Earl, Efren) all dominated under the nine ball format

You left our Archer?????

LOL

 

[av84fun]

10-ball is a better game simply because it really changes the break and does not make one bad roll equate to 4 or 5 games very often as can happen in 9-ball regularily.

Only if the ridiculous winner breaks rule is in effect...a rule that is unprecedented in any major sport and for obvious reasons.

In alternate break, one player can still win multiple racks in a row but NOT with the opponent sitting in his chair unable to compete AT ALL.

(-:

 

[jasonlaus]

Putting tables together aint got $hit to do w/ what Im talkin about. I have been playin top level pool long before I have been doing table work. And no you cant have a autograph because Im just a shortstop that loves the game.

All I have done here is just place a friendly opinoin, then you have the trolls like yourself who think they no everything that has to do w/ pool, its a shame. Thats is why most of all the pro's donot even attempt to post on here anymore because of people like yourself. It is a damn shame that nobodys opinion means anything to you but your own....LOL......Terrible!!!

SHORTSTOP? c+ players are shortstops now? do all your friends that are pros & roadplayers even let you rack for them? why dont you watch a few accustats matches record break & win % then come back with the results. or you could keep asking other people for your opinion

 

[jasonlaus]

There is the answer!!!!!!!! I could not agree w/ you any further!!!! 9-Ball is nothing but a break contest, nothing more and surely nothing less. All of the "TOP" players will agree, ask them....................

Maybe they dont post on here because of retards like you. 9 ball is nothing but a break contest, nothing more and surely nothing less. i wouldnt post on here either if thats the kind of crap i had to read. is this what you honestly think? if it is improve your break & you will be a champ in no time. i would love to play you some sets & see who has the better BREAK. it must be you since you have beeen playing high level pool for a long time. but arent you a C+ player? Oh well guess ive been going about this all wrong for years, gotta get back to practicing only my break & quit wasting my time on all that other stuff. thanks for all your help frankie, see you on the tour.

 

[ironman]

There certainly is an element of truth to your views. There are millions of different locations 9 or ten balls may arrive at after a break.

Making a ball AND getting shape of whatever the lowest ball happens to be is largely luck. The player can attempt to leave the CB at center table to upwardly adjust the odds of having a shot but still the end result is largely luck.

The more balls on the table after the break, the less likely it will be to have a shot on the lowest ball and therefore, the "luckier" the player who does get a shot.

In 3 ball, there is probably a 95-98% chance of being able to see the lowest remaining ball. As balls are added, that chance will decline. Try playing 8 Ball Rotation sometime to test that theory!

And while safeties and kicks are more likely to be required in 10 Ball...there is PLENTY of luck in where the cb/ob end up after kicks and safeties.

But at the end of the day, luck or chance or "getting rolls" is part of the APPEAL of the game. If raw skill could be measured scientifically, then ONE player would be better than all others and ONE player would win all games...at least all that he/she brought his/her "A" game to.

What a bore that would be. The "luck of the draw"...the now two "immaculate receptions" in the Superbowl...the lucky punch in boxing etc. all add to the DRAMA in sports and DRAMA relies on uncertainty and chance.

IMHO, too many people are scapegoating 9 Ball to be the cause of pool's widespread lack of popularity in America but 9 Ball is not at fault.

8 Ball is the game of the masses in this country and there likely was never any tournement more hyped (in the modern era) than the IPT matches...which got TERRIBLE TV viewership.

It's not the game of pool (ANY particular game of pool) that is the issue. The ISSUE is that people have only 24 hours in a day to watch or attend matches and they have a HUGE array of options on how to spend their time.

RELATIVE to other sporting events, Americans have concluded that pool is simply not exciting enough to WATCH...either on TV or in person.

That's the deal and there is nothing under the sun that is going to change that. We need to just accept our sport for what it is...and for what it is not...just like players and fans of darts, curling, ping pong, bass fishing, lumberjacking etc. have done.

Just IHMO.

Regards,
Jim

Pretty good point indeed. I agree there is far too much scapegoating going on.
Luck will always be a factor in pool no matter which game one enjoys or gambles at. Always has, always will be.
Pool is a tough game to watch and enjoy and especially from a distance like 20-30 feet away and there may never be a solution to that. I do believe announbcer could do a better job af talking about what may be going through the players mind at the time and what he is trying to avoid or accomplish at the time.
I agree with you though, for now at least, it is what it is, like it or not.

 

[av84fun]

Pretty good point indeed. I agree there is far too much scapegoating going on.
Luck will always be a factor in pool no matter which game one enjoys or gambles at. Always has, always will be.
Pool is a tough game to watch and enjoy and especially from a distance like 20-30 feet away and there may never be a solution to that. I do believe announbcer could do a better job af talking about what may be going through the players mind at the time and what he is trying to avoid or accomplish at the time.
I agree with you though, for now at least, it is what it is, like it or not.

Right about spectator issues. I don't mean to be overly critical because there is a real chicken and egg issue...but the seating at many events is terrible and fewer still have large screen closed circuit TV screens.

Hockey has a similar issue...on a larger scale of course...but the Predators have put in REALLY large HD jumbotron screens and you have to kind of force yourself to watch the game live!!!

But for pool matches, stadium seating and large TV screens aren't cheap and it must be hard to justify such expenses when there are sometimes less than 100 people in a match between world champion players.

Regards,
Jim

 

[jay helfert]

All right here we go. It doesn't matter what the game is (9-Ball or Ten Ball), the best players will win most of the time. Of course what helps even more is playing on tough equipment. Soft equipment is a bigger equalizer than playing with only nine balls.

Like Ironman said, there will be a luck factor in pool no matter what the game. But the skill factor far outweighs it. I love 9-Ball because the closer you get to winning, the closer you get to losing at the same time. You can make eight great shots and dog the nine, and you lose. I've seen it happen a million times. 9-Ball takes heart and courage to be a champion. That's why the top players win every tournament, without exception. A shortstop may get lucky and win a match or two, but he won't win the tournament.

My observation after nearly 40 years watching top flight pool is that the best players get there in the end. I don't care if it's a Race To Eleven or Race To Seven. Take a look at the past winners at DCC, and it's always been a Race To Seven. The shorter the race, the greater the pressure. Same goes for winner breaks or alternate breaks. The best player finds a way to win. On tough equipment, the cut break is not as effective. The head ball doesn't have to go every time, and even if it does, you don't have to run out.

All that being said, Ten Ball is about a 20% tougher game to play than 9-Ball. The break shot is harder and running out is tougher. It gives a little more advantage to the better player. In the modern era of pool, it probably is a better tournament game, with the skill level of today's players. Ten Ball, Race To Ten, D.E. and you'll find out who the best players are. Shortstops need not apply. JMHO

 

[frankwhite]

Maybe they dont post on here because of retards like you. 9 ball is nothing but a break contest, nothing more and surely nothing less. i wouldnt post on here either if thats the kind of crap i had to read. is this what you honestly think? if it is improve your break & you will be a champ in no time. i would love to play you some sets & see who has the better BREAK. it must be you since you have beeen playing high level pool for a long time. but arent you a C+ player? Oh well guess ive been going about this all wrong for years, gotta get back to practicing only my break & quit wasting my time on all that other stuff. thanks for all your help frankie, see you on the tour.

When you see me on the "TOUR" come check me out, then Ill need you to tell me Im a retard then.......Then we can surely take it from there!!!!!!

 

[jasonlaus]

When you see me on the "TOUR" come check me out, then Ill need you to tell me Im a retard then.......Then we can surely take it from there!!!!!!

sounds like a threat. or did someone else tell you to say that. just wondering if you have any of your own opinions? what, you didnt want everyone to know your a C+ player? didnt you say you have been playing a high level of pool for a long time before you started working on tables, how long have you been working on tables? apparently we also disagree on what a high level of play is. when you come on here & say that 9 ball is nothing but a break contest you might as well slap all the pros in the face. do you understand how idiotic that is? but now that everyone knows your a C+ player you want to fight. I bet if you told alllllll your pro & roadplayer friends that 9 ball is nothing but a break contest you could get all the breaks & a few balls for as much money as you could come up with. let us know how that turns out. i think we already know. try having a little respect for these players & the thousands of hours of their lives they have given to this game. or keep talking whatever

 

[BPG24]

Jasonlaus...

No one is dissing the pros abilities here, you are badly missing the point. All of the pros can run out. That is a given. The guy who makes a ball and keeps control of the cue ball on the break is a huge favorite over his opponent.
If you can't understand that or accept it then there is no reason for anyone to try and explain it to you any further.

 

[worldison2]

Jasonlaus...

No one is dissing the pros abilities here, you are badly missing the point. All of the pros can run out. That is a given. The guy who makes a ball and keeps control of the cue ball on the break is a huge favorite over his opponent.
If you can't understand that or accept it then there is no reason for anyone to try and explain it to you any further.

I have to agree with Jasonlaus here. (Also Jay Helfert). There may be an advantage to having the break, but that alone does not guarantee a win. Why do you think the majority of tournaments are still 9-ball? (Both at the pro and at the amateur level).
The cream still rises to the top, no matter who is breaking.
I'm also not putting down 8-ball, straight pool, one-pocket, 10-ball, banks, or any other billiard game. I'm just saying that 9-ball is still king, and it is still a great game.

 

[Snapshot9]

My Opinion

JMHO, but I have played 46 years, for good sums of money, and I would say that in 9 ball, any race of 9 or more games, that the better player will win over 90% of the time.

Now, that DOES NOT include a player getting a spot of any kind to even things up. so to speak. A spot can and will change things.

Everyone wants marathon games today. I used to play races to 11 for a thousand all the time in the old days. A race to 5 for $100, we didn't even go to 7 unless $2-300 was on the set. And we use to race to 9 for $500 a set.

 

[av84fun]

As always...you are the voice of wisdom and reason. I agree with you entirely up the the 10 Ball part.

The first 3 paragraphs tells the story that 9 Ball isn't "broke" which raises the question of "Why fix it.?"

If 10 Ball is 20% more difficult as you suggest...and I accpet that figure as one that is as good as any...then by making just a few rules changes like the Mosconi Cup did (break from the box...3 past the head string and ALTERNATE BREAK) then the difficulty factor gap must close by around half so 10 Ball would be only 10% more difficult.

That tradeoff...and it is critical...is that for the sport to endure as anything more than a gambling game...then the wishes of the FANS have to be the first priority.

Like it or not, we are in a short-attention-span world and without doubt, 10 Ball would lengthen the rack time and therefore the match time. It would also reduce the number of run outs and would increase the number of safety battles that some of us LOVE to watch but are generally edited out of the TV matches for reasons of time.

You said it all when you wrote..."9-Ball takes heart and courage to be a champion."

This is SO true.

Regards,
Jim

All right here we go. It doesn't matter what the game is (9-Ball or Ten Ball), the best players will win most of the time. Of course what helps even more is playing on tough equipment. Soft equipment is a bigger equalizer than playing with only nine balls.

Like Ironman said, there will be a luck factor in pool no matter what the game. But the skill factor far outweighs it. I love 9-Ball because the closer you get to winning, the closer you get to losing at the same time. You can make eight great shots and dog the nine, and you lose. I've seen it happen a million times. 9-Ball takes heart and courage to be a champion. That's why the top players win every tournament, without exception. A shortstop may get lucky and win a match or two, but he won't win the tournament.

My observation after nearly 40 years watching top flight pool is that the best players get there in the end. I don't care if it's a Race To Eleven or Race To Seven. Take a look at the past winners at DCC, and it's always been a Race To Seven. The shorter the race, the greater the pressure. Same goes for winner breaks or alternate breaks. The best player finds a way to win. On tough equipment, the cut break is not as effective. The head ball doesn't have to go every time, and even if it does, you don't have to run out.

All that being said, Ten Ball is about a 20% tougher game to play than 9-Ball. The break shot is harder and running out is tougher. It gives a little more advantage to the better player. In the modern era of pool, it probably is a better tournament game, with the skill level of today's players. Ten Ball, Race To Ten, D.E. and you'll find out who the best players are. Shortstops need not apply. JMHO

 

[Cuebacca]

I think Jason is just trying to refute the statement that 9-ball is literally just a break contest when top pros are playing.

We all know that the break is hugely important, but I would assume that any top pro who calls 9-ball a break contest is either doing so out of frustration, or for dramatic effect, just to stress their point of how important the break is.

Consider this though: How many Accu-Stats matches can you find where both players had a 1000 TPA? I've never specifically searched for one, but I'd be surprised if there were many. If 9-ball really comes down to just a break contest for the top pros, there should be plenty of them. JMHO.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The longer the race, the less luck is a factor, just as a matter of statistics. However some days luck rules even in races longer than to fifteen. A "C" player or banger isn't going to beat a top pro but an "A" player or shortstop can and does sometimes.

We could say the same thing about three ball. In a long enough race the best player will win. The problem with three ball and nine ball is that we rarely have the time for the best player at the moment to come out on top in competition. Within the constraints of a standard table and balls, we should be playing fifteen ball rotation to determine the better player in the least amount of games and possibly the shortest amount of time.

Hu

I agree with this, but I'll just add that I don't think our goal in every competition is really to determine who is the better player - our (the "public's") goal is to be entertained and not have luck play too big a role. We'd be bored if the same players won all the time, so luck plays a valuable role for us. As with most competitive entertainment, I think we need the right balance of luck and predictability. 9-ball does that pretty well.

I think the appeal of 10-ball right now is not that it's a such a better indicator of who the better player is but (1) it's new and (a little) different and (2) both players get to the table a little more often.

pj
chgo

 

[jasonlaus]

563 out of 1000 the breaker lost [strickland, bustamante,archer,efran,luat,parica] i quess these guys cant break. accustats came up with 53.7% breaker lost. THE NUMBERS DONT LIE. In any given match the break may be a huge advantage but not overall. that is my point

 

[jasonlaus]

Jasonlaus...

No one is dissing the pros abilities here, you are badly missing the point. All of the pros can run out. That is a given. The guy who makes a ball and keeps control of the cue ball on the break is a huge favorite over his opponent.
If you can't understand that or accept it then there is no reason for anyone to try and explain it to you any further.

now if you cant understand there is no point in explaining any further