9 Ball - Really as bad as everyone says?

[jasonlaus]

where you at frankie? arent you a "sponsor" for tony's tour? how does that work considering you think 9 ball sucks? do you still think its a break contest cause the numbers probably dont matter to you or anyone else saying this. yeah we get it IF they make a ball & get position they usually run out, but according to the numbers this doesnt happen as often as you think. IF IF IF if my aunt had ba**s she would be my uncle.

 

[jay helfert]

As always...you are the voice of wisdom and reason. I agree with you entirely up the the 10 Ball part.

The first 3 paragraphs tells the story that 9 Ball isn't "broke" which raises the question of "Why fix it.?"

If 10 Ball is 20% more difficult as you suggest...and I accpet that figure as one that is as good as any...then by making just a few rules changes like the Mosconi Cup did (break from the box...3 past the head string and ALTERNATE BREAK) then the difficulty factor gap must close by around half so 10 Ball would be only 10% more difficult.

That tradeoff...and it is critical...is that for the sport to endure as anything more than a gambling game...then the wishes of the FANS have to be the first priority.

Like it or not, we are in a short-attention-span world and without doubt, 10 Ball would lengthen the rack time and therefore the match time. It would also reduce the number of run outs and would increase the number of safety battles that some of us LOVE to watch but are generally edited out of the TV matches for reasons of time.

You said it all when you wrote..."9-Ball takes heart and courage to be a champion."

This is SO true.

Regards,
Jim

Thanks Jim.

My observation over the years is that the fans love to see a player string racks. When one guy is rolling (like Earl did so many times), it is awesome to watch. Especially if he is coming from behind. I've seen Earl down 7-2 (Varner at the Sands years ago), and the next time Nick shot he was down 9-7. Nick came up dry on the break. Earl ran out. Earl broke and ran two racks, made the 9 on the break, ran three more racks quick, and then finally had to play safe after the next break shot. This all took about 15-20 minutes tops. Nick was weak as a kitten by now and lost 11-7.

Danny Medina broke and ran nine racks at the Sands one year. The crowd loved it! Danny had that big break working.

And the crowd loves to see the 9 ball slowly fall into a pocket on the break, especially at a critical time in the match. They go crazy when that happens. And if an important match goes hill-hill, you can hear a pin drop in a room full of people. I've witnessed this phenomena countless times and it's just great drama. Pool can be great theater if it plays out perfectly.

 

[jasonlaus]

tap tap tap who could say it any better

 

[frankwhite]

sounds like a threat. or did someone else tell you to say that. just wondering if you have any of your own opinions? what, you didnt want everyone to know your a C+ player? didnt you say you have been playing a high level of pool for a long time before you started working on tables, how long have you been working on tables? apparently we also disagree on what a high level of play is. when you come on here & say that 9 ball is nothing but a break contest you might as well slap all the pros in the face. do you understand how idiotic that is? but now that everyone knows your a C+ player you want to fight. I bet if you told alllllll your pro & roadplayer friends that 9 ball is nothing but a break contest you could get all the breaks & a few balls for as much money as you could come up with. let us know how that turns out. i think we already know. try having a little respect for these players & the thousands of hours of their lives they have given to this game. or keep talking whatever

What R U a crack head or what!!! You changed this whole post around to suite u. All I did was give my opinion, and you came from left field on some other $hit. C plus,,,lol I wouldnt care if you thoght I was a Z minus. This internet stuff brings in come real winners, get a girl or go practice some. Your a real nit dont even say $hit to me bro, go call someone else names. You keep this up and one day I will bump into you "AND".........................LOL.LOL

 

[jamesroberts]

if 9 ball is not a contest of breaking then how do you explain corey deuel giving svb the 8 ball playing rack your own 9 ball and beating him and then corey gettin beat playin 10 ball even

 

[BPG24]

I have to agree with Jasonlaus here. (Also Jay Helfert). There may be an advantage to having the break, but that alone does not guarantee a win. Why do you think the majority of tournaments are still 9-ball? (Both at the pro and at the amateur level).
The cream still rises to the top, no matter who is breaking.
I'm also not putting down 8-ball, straight pool, one-pocket, 10-ball, banks, or any other billiard game. I'm just saying that 9-ball is still king, and it is still a great game.

No one said that if a pro breaks, he is guaranteed to win... I don't know where you got that from.

If a Pro level player executes their break the way they should, they will keep control of the table. ANY Pro is a favorite to win from that position. Even if balls are tied up, because they have the first opportunity to run out or lock up their opponent.

 

[BPG24]

563 out of 1000 the breaker lost [strickland, bustamante,archer,efran,luat,parica] i quess these guys cant break. accustats came up with 53.7% breaker lost. THE NUMBERS DONT LIE. In any given match the break may be a huge advantage but not overall. that is my point

Those numbers only mean that these pros need to improve their break or their decision making after the break. Plus other factors play in to these stats. Winner breaks, alternate breaks, table conditions, humidity, etc etc...

Any Pro level player that executes their break, should make at least one ball and squat the cueball. From that position they are a monster favorite to win the game, so long as they make the correct decisions and execute the way they are expected to.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[jasonlaus]

Those numbers only mean that these pros need to improve their break or their decision making after the break. Plus other factors play in to these stats. Winner breaks, alternate breaks, table conditions, humidity, etc etc...

Any Pro level player that executes their break, should make at least one ball and squat the cueball. From that position they are a monster favorite to win the game, so long as they make the correct decisions and execute the way they are expected to.

Did you read who those pros are? best in the world, or do you think frankie C+ player is a champ? Could you please join the real world. the statement was made that 9 ball is nothing but a break contest, i posted the numbers & you still disagree. the percentages are games lost by the breaker period if you cant understand that nothing can help you. we all know a pro should get out IF they make a ball on the break & get shape but this obviously doesnt always happen. again IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF

 

[jasonlaus]

The numbers don't lie, but they are misleading. I'll assume your stats are correct, I know that they are at least very close to that. But that doesn't necessarily equate to any given match. If one player has the break figured out on that particular table, and the other player doesn't yet, it will make a huge difference in the outcome of that particular match with the pros. The overall stats don't really equate to any particular race to 9 or 10. IMHO

Neil you are 100% correct. but these guys want to make a blanket statement about all matches & they are wrong. I have broke & run 7 racks of 9 ball [ in a row] for the retards. so in a given match i could beat any pro but im nowhere near their speed & would never claim to be. I also believe the average is about 13% to scratch on the break,couple that with not making a ball or making one & not getting position & the break is not the advantage everyone thinks it is. Again i agree that the break can be a huge advantage in a given match but not on average.

 

[jasonlaus]

if 9 ball is not a contest of breaking then how do you explain corey deuel giving svb the 8 ball playing rack your own 9 ball and beating him and then corey gettin beat playin 10 ball even

READ THE NUMBERS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 9 BALL. 10 BALL MAY BE DIFFERENT BUT YOU CANT TAKE ONE MATCH & MAKE AN OVERALL STATEMENT THAT ITS A BREAK CONTEST. I GUESS IF YOU RUN OUT 1 RACK YOU COULD SAY THAT YOU ALWAYS RUN OUT OR IF YOU MISS THE FIRST BALL YOU SHOOT THEN YOU MISS ALL BALLS

 

[BPG24]

Did you read who those pros are? best in the world, or do you think frankie C+ player is a champ? Could you please join the real world. the statement was made that 9 ball is nothing but a break contest, i posted the numbers & you still disagree. the percentages are games lost by the breaker period if you cant understand that nothing can help you. we all know a pro should get out IF they make a ball on the break & get shape but this obviously doesnt always happen. again IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF

The stats you posted are meaningless unless you break them down much much further.

What was the reason that each pro lost these games?
Was it because they failed to execute on the break?
Was it because the made a poor decision?
Was it because they missed a ball that they shouldn't have?
Did they play a poor safety?
ETC ETC ETC.

Once you have all of the information and break it down player by player, then you can find out why they are winning or losing on their break. I know this may be hard for you to comprehend and accept but once you do understand this, your game will go up alot and quickly.

Practice is great for your game but if all you are doing is practicing and playing you will never reach your potential. You have to understand how to analyze your own game and work specifically on your weaknesses. pros are no exception to this.

BTW If you honestly believe that a top pro is not a HUGE favorite to win a game after a well executed break than you have alot to learn.

9 ball is all about putting yourself in a position to win and the break is how it all begins. Next time you play, don't just jump up there and bust the balls. Do some research on breaking, come in with a plan and adjust according to the playing conditions. You will be amazed at the results if you put in the work

Class dismissed

 

[av84fun]

Thanks Jim.

My observation over the years is that the fans love to see a player string racks. When one guy is rolling (like Earl did so many times), it is awesome to watch. Especially if he is coming from behind. I've seen Earl down 7-2 (Varner at the Sands years ago), and the next time Nick shot he was down 9-7. Nick came up dry on the break. Earl ran out. Earl broke and ran two racks, made the 9 on the break, ran three more racks quick, and then finally had to play safe after the next break shot. This all took about 15-20 minutes tops. Nick was weak as a kitten by now and lost 11-7.

So Varner...a world champion player at the time was ahead 7-2...got TWO more shots in the entire match and lost 11-7. Earl may have had all the fans in the room because Nick's fans couldn't have liked it much! (-:

Danny Medina broke and ran nine racks at the Sands one year. The crowd loved it! Danny had that big break working.

But both of those events were a LONG time ago. We're about the same age so I'm not slinging any arrows on that score!! But it is a different world today.

It is CLEARLY a matter of personal taste...some like chocolate and some like vanilla...but IMHO, and in that of the promotors/owners of virtually all major sports, games/matches/tournaments should be COMPETITIONS where both players/teams have an equal opportunity to COMPETE! (-:

And the crowd loves to see the 9 ball slowly fall into a pocket on the break, especially at a critical time in the match. They go crazy when that happens. And if an important match goes hill-hill, you can hear a pin drop in a room full of people. I've witnessed this phenomena countless times and it's just great drama. Pool can be great theater if it plays out perfectly.

Agreed re: making the cheese on the break but that recommends 9 Ball over 10 Ball. And hill/hill matches are MUCH more likely to occur in an alternate break format vs. winner breaks.

Regards,
Jim

 

[jasonlaus]

What R U a crack head or what!!! You changed this whole post around to suite u. All I did was give my opinion, and you came from left field on some other $hit. C plus,,,lol I wouldnt care if you thoght I was a Z minus. This internet stuff brings in come real winners, get a girl or go practice some. Your a real nit dont even say $hit to me bro, go call someone else names. You keep this up and one day I will bump into you "AND".........................LOL.LOL

FRANKIE YOU ARE A C+ PLAYER ARE YOU NOT? YOU MADE THE STATEMENT THAT 9 BALL WAS NOTHING BUT A BREAK CONTEST ARE YOU DENYING THIS? IM A NIT? I UNDERSTAND YOU DONT HAVE 2 NICKLES TO RUB TOGETHER. AS FAR AS PRACTICE I DO WHEN I HAVE TIME BUT I WORK ALOT UNLIKE YOU. BY THE WAY IF YOU HAD ANY MONEY I WOULD HAVE BEEN IN TO RELIEVE YOU OF IT ALREADY. REMEMBER YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I LOOK LIKE BUT I KNOW WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE SO BEFORE YOU THREATEN ME ONE MORE TIME PLEASE CONSIDER THIS. BY THE WAY IM NOT IN FLORIDA IF THATS WHAT YOUR THINKING. SO AGAIN BEFORE YOU THREATEN ME AGAIN KNOW THAT IM A VERY SHORT DRIVE AWAY. I SUSPECT THIS ISNT THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE BEEN WRONG & THREATEND SOMEONE. WELL I MAY NOT BE THE GUY TO DO THIS TO. AS FAR AS CHANGING THIS POST AROUND TO SUIT ME YOU SAID IT WAS A BREAK CONTEST. I PROVED YOU WRONG NOW YOU WANT TO FIGHT. GROW UP.

 

[jasonlaus]

The stats you posted are meaningless unless you break them down much much further.

What was the reason that each pro lost these games?
Was it because they failed to execute on the break?
Was it because the made a poor decision?
Was it because they missed a ball that they shouldn't have?
Did they play a poor safety?
ETC ETC ETC.

Once you have all of the information and break it down player by player, then you can find out why they are winning or losing on their break. I know this may be hard for you to comprehend and accept but once you do understand this, your game will go up alot and quickly.

Practice is great for your game but if all you are doing is practicing and playing you will never reach your potential. You have to understand how to analyze your own game and work specifically on your weaknesses. pros are no exception to this.

BTW If you honestly believe that a top pro is not a HUGE favorite to win a game after a well executed break than you have alot to learn.

9 ball is all about putting yourself in a position to win and the break is how it all begins. Next time you play, don't just jump up there and bust the balls. Do some research on breaking, come in with a plan and adjust according to the playing conditions. You will be amazed at the results if you put in the work

Class dismissed

Apparently you cant read

 

[av84fun]

Those numbers only mean that these pros need to improve their break or their decision making after the break. Plus other factors play in to these stats. Winner breaks, alternate breaks, table conditions, humidity, etc etc...

Any Pro level player that executes their break, should make at least one ball and squat the cueball. From that position they are a monster favorite to win the game, so long as they make the correct decisions and execute the way they are expected to.

That happens a lot less often than you seem to think it does. I would guess 1 out of 3 breaks tops on average.

If the 1 and/or wing aren't going on a particular table, they often don't even want to "squat" the cue ball but rather bring it back past the head string because that is where the 1 ball is likely to go if it doesn't drop in the side.

And even so, they are not a "monster favorite" to win just by making a ball and getting the cb to center table. The break and run percentage for the top champions isn't more than 30-35%.

I'll watch a few of my matches on tape and report back what the "break and win" percentage is and report back but my guess is that it will be about 60%.

But intuitively, if what you said is true, then a huge percentage of alternate break matches would go hill/hill but I'd bet that fewer than 20% of them do.

Regards,
Jim

 

[jamesroberts]

READ THE NUMBERS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 9 BALL. 10 BALL MAY BE DIFFERENT BUT YOU CANT TAKE ONE MATCH & MAKE AN OVERALL STATEMENT THAT ITS A BREAK CONTEST. I GUESS IF YOU RUN OUT 1 RACK YOU COULD SAY THAT YOU ALWAYS RUN OUT OR IF YOU MISS THE FIRST BALL YOU SHOOT THEN YOU MISS ALL BALLS

go play someone like corey deuel rack your own 9 ball where they make the wing ball everytime and get the same pattern everytime and tell me its not a break contest.....thats all i'm saying

 

[av84fun]

563 out of 1000 the breaker lost [strickland, bustamante,archer,efran,luat,parica] i quess these guys cant break. accustats came up with 53.7% breaker lost. THE NUMBERS DONT LIE. In any given match the break may be a huge advantage but not overall. that is my point

I tend to agree with you. I just am curious about where you got the 563/1000 data.

The accu-stats data is what I believe Bob Jewett posted a while back...but they were derived from matches played a fairly long time ago before "tight racking" (read...TAPPED RACKS) came into being. Nowadays, the "ball made on the break" percentage is likely higher than it was back in the day.

But again, I agree with your general thesis. People forget that making a ball on the break doesn't guarantee seeing the lowest ball and the player who pushes out has about a 55% chance of losing.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

go play someone like corey deuel rack your own 9 ball where they make the wing ball everytime and get the same pattern everytime and tell me its not a break contest.....thats all i'm saying

I don't care who racks or who breaks or whether they make the wing ball or not but they DON'T get the same pattern every time...or anything close to it.

Regards,
Jim

 

[jamesroberts]

I don't care who racks or who breaks or whether they make the wing ball or not but they DON'T get the same pattern every time...or anything close to it.

Regards,
Jim

sounds like we agree to disagree